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- associate attorney or legal marketing/business development coodinator
- travel overseas
- network
- become a better cook
- get the South-Asian community more involved in American politics
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Bob Larson
Because the legal job market sucks, I've been looking at non-law jobs to pay the bills in the meantime. Non-law employers see that I'm a recent law school grad and licensed attorney, and assume (correctly) that I'll leave as soon as I find a lawyer job.
Does anyone have any advice on how to handle this? I've started leaving law school off of my resume, but then that makes it look I worked full-time for the past three years, instead of part-time. I'd rather not lie, but that's a 3-year hole.
Jonathan S. Ross:
@ Benita: You're quite welcome. We're living in grim times for many of us that tried to do "all the right things" and pursued higher education, ...More@ Benita: You're quite welcome. We're living in grim times for many of us that tried to do "all the right things" and pursued higher education, grew our skills, etc., only to find that at the end of the day, many businesses will source labor as cheaply as possible (even if the results are inferior) in exchange for short-term gain.
For all the talk of a "knowledge economy" and the value of education, the ROI for those that have to incur substantial educational debt is starting to be called into question. Entry level positions that now require a Masters degree only speak to how "devalued" such credentials are becoming in some circles.
As I understand it, even the Census Bureau reports that slightly over half of all Americans age 25 years or more have a 4-year Bachelors degree, and only about 10% have post-graduate education. And increasingly large numbers of people in these categories face "under-employment" even when possession of such degrees is little more than a check box on some HR form for certain jobs.
Hence my belief that being able to constantly adapt and adopt new skills is paramount in this "new normal" and whether a W-2 employee or self-employed, you need to consider yourself for all intents and purposes "freelance" and act accordingly.
I can honestly state that in my years in the working world, I have never burned a client or employer due to "lack of loyalty" but the same cannot be said the other way around. I think that many companies are in for a rude awakening having adopted an attitude that, "The beatings will continue until morale improves" in their interaction with employees...
71 weeks ago
For all the talk of a "knowledge economy" and the value of education, the ROI for those that have to incur substantial educational debt is starting to be called into question. Entry level positions that now require a Masters degree only speak to how "devalued" such credentials are becoming in some circles.
As I understand it, even the Census Bureau reports that slightly over half of all Americans age 25 years or more have a 4-year Bachelors degree, and only about 10% have post-graduate education. And increasingly large numbers of people in these categories face "under-employment" even when possession of such degrees is little more than a check box on some HR form for certain jobs.
Hence my belief that being able to constantly adapt and adopt new skills is paramount in this "new normal" and whether a W-2 employee or self-employed, you need to consider yourself for all intents and purposes "freelance" and act accordingly.
I can honestly state that in my years in the working world, I have never burned a client or employer due to "lack of loyalty" but the same cannot be said the other way around. I think that many companies are in for a rude awakening having adopted an attitude that, "The beatings will continue until morale improves" in their interaction with employees...
71 weeks ago
Timothy Johnson III:
Bob, shoot me an email at tjohnson3@gmail.com with your contact info ASAP. I've got ...MoreBob, shoot me an email at tjohnson3@gmail.com with your contact info ASAP. I've got someone you can chat with.
71 weeks ago
71 weeks ago
Noel Luke
I have some extra time and want to learn a new language. Should I choose the second language I'm most familiar with (Spanish) or should I do some research and find a language that is better for business (as a tax attorney). Let me know your thoughts.
Rebecca Thorman recommended this
Benita Talati:
to all:
wouldn't it be cool if we could get CLE credits for foreign language lessons? It's so essential to the practice of law these days so it ...Moreto all:
wouldn't it be cool if we could get CLE credits for foreign language lessons? It's so essential to the practice of law these days so it would be related to law anyway.
87 weeks ago
wouldn't it be cool if we could get CLE credits for foreign language lessons? It's so essential to the practice of law these days so it ...Moreto all:
wouldn't it be cool if we could get CLE credits for foreign language lessons? It's so essential to the practice of law these days so it would be related to law anyway.
87 weeks ago
Stacey Laskin
OK, so it's that time of year! Semi-ridiculous question: What's a girl supposed to wear to take the bar exam? I've heard that years ago, candidates were required to wear suits for all days of the exam. I know this is not the case anymore, but is it appropriate to show up in sweats and no make-up? Or is it better to keep those sentiments on the inside and at least LOOK like you've pulled yourself together? Any personal experiences/ tips?
K. L. Schneider:
Wear your pajamas if that is what you feel most comfortable in. Everyone else is likely too freaked out to even notice what you are wearing. I'm ...MoreWear your pajamas if that is what you feel most comfortable in. Everyone else is likely too freaked out to even notice what you are wearing. I'm sitting for Delaware's Bar in a little over a week and plan on wearing my favorite comfy velour sweatpants and then layers up top (probably a T-shirt & light hoodie). I would worry, however, about what you are and are not allowed to bring into the exam room. Some states are really strict here and seeming necessaries, like meds, water bottles, etc., may be relegated to an unmonitored hallway during the exam.
97 weeks ago
97 weeks ago
Nathan Johnson
Hitching off the previous post... I just graduated from Wisconsin with my JD and the job search is dismal. What is particularly troubling is that the radar is absolutely silent. I have applied for half a dozen jobs in the last month and I have heard nothing (not even a rejection). This seems really strange to me; wondering if anyone else has or is having a similar experience. Bad economy or not, I would at least expect some notification.
Dr. Woody:
Natahn, I certainly don't have to tell you that law is a particulary tough field these days. If you are looking to practice have you thought about ...MoreNatahn, I certainly don't have to tell you that law is a particulary tough field these days. If you are looking to practice have you thought about smaller firms? Keep in mind, they are going to be far less sophisticated in their on-line systems. Just to echo Benita, I would pound the pavement, knock on doors, hit professional law group monthly gatherings, happy hours...
100 weeks ago
100 weeks ago
Julie
Hi all! Was hoping either of you could give some insight in to the legal profession? After completing an MA degree in International Studies, I've been job hunting for over a year and am thinking of going back to school, thinking a JD/LLB may open doors and provide a much needed challenge. I would sincerely appreciate any advice or tips about how navigating this process or even sharing expertise in the area - is it what you expected?
Alli Gerkman:
Julie... Slaw.ca just had a post (below) on the limited articling positions in Canada right now. I recommend taking a look.
I'm sure you know ...MoreJulie... Slaw.ca just had a post (below) on the limited articling positions in Canada right now. I recommend taking a look.
I'm sure you know the system far better than I do, but as I understand it, if you don't get an articling position, you won't be called to the bar. And if you're not called to the bar, you don't get to practice law. So, in theory, law school isn't even opening the door to being a lawyer in Canada right now.
http://www.slaw.ca/2010/05/13/articling-students-in-need/
105 weeks ago
I'm sure you know ...MoreJulie... Slaw.ca just had a post (below) on the limited articling positions in Canada right now. I recommend taking a look.
I'm sure you know the system far better than I do, but as I understand it, if you don't get an articling position, you won't be called to the bar. And if you're not called to the bar, you don't get to practice law. So, in theory, law school isn't even opening the door to being a lawyer in Canada right now.
http://www.slaw.ca/2010/05/13/articling-students-in-need/
105 weeks ago
Benita Talati
How can newly admitted attorneys obtain 3 years of experience when employers only seem to want to hire those with the requisite amount of experience?!? Even for contract work!
Alli Gerkman:
Brian Tannebaum wrote a great post for young lawyers almost a year ago. The gist? Be scrappy: MoreBrian Tannebaum wrote a great post for young lawyers almost a year ago. The gist? Be scrappy: http://bit.ly/a7DQK2
Here's another post from Scott Greenfield about a young lawyer who took control of his career and launched his own firm. http://bit.ly/dCuhFA
109 weeks ago
Here's another post from Scott Greenfield about a young lawyer who took control of his career and launched his own firm. http://bit.ly/dCuhFA
109 weeks ago
Thomas L. Justice Jr.:
Alli is on the money, be scrappy, be resourceful, be reliable, and be valuable to the office. When looking for work be prepared to show firms how ...MoreAlli is on the money, be scrappy, be resourceful, be reliable, and be valuable to the office. When looking for work be prepared to show firms how you can be all of those things for them. While looking for work you should also be looking for clients. Being a lawyer is a 24 hour a day job, 7 days a week. I think about files in my sleep and often wake up remembering to add something to tomorrows to do list. If that's not what you want, your in the wrong field.
109 weeks ago
109 weeks ago
Benita Talati
back in the job market...I decided it was better to quit than be fired. Thx to all for the replies/advice to my posts.
Benita Talati:
I wanted to stay but I felt it was better to leave on good terms than to be terminated. She actually said that maybe after getting some ...MoreI wanted to stay but I felt it was better to leave on good terms than to be terminated. She actually said that maybe after getting some experience, we could try again in a year. It just was not the right setting for a newly admitted person.
115 weeks ago
115 weeks ago
Benita Talati
Part III:
Evidently she's hired me for pay but the 2nd attorney hasn't been "hired." She told him in front of me that these two weeks will be training for him and then when he returns from vacation, he'll start working. Is it me or does that sound like she's planning on getting rid of me at that time? Why is she paying one of us but not the other? Is she just using me and playing a game with me? Should I quit while I'm ahead instead of getting fired?
Benita Talati
Part II from below:
This person knew I live 45 minutes SOUTH of her when she hired me. Yet she expected me to drive in on Friday when I told her my street wasn't plowed yet and I don't own a 4-wheel drive vehicle. She told me that she wouldn't expect me to come in during inclement weather. But then got mad at me for not coming in. I've only worked there for two weeks! I'd like to stay but I can tell she's ready to fire me anyway. More to continue.
Benita Talati
anyone have advice on working for a solo practitioner? I work for one although there are a couple of other associates. She has unrealistic expectations, has given no support or training and has yelled at me everyday for making mistakes when I am a NEWLY admitted attorney! She blames me for everything, borders on verbal abuse. Now I know why she's having problems keeping attorneys. She fires them within a month of hiring. More to continue.
:
This is not unique to law. There are miserable bosses in all fields. Sometimes you can learn from them. Sometimes it's best to start looking ...MoreThis is not unique to law. There are miserable bosses in all fields. Sometimes you can learn from them. Sometimes it's best to start looking for another job. It works both ways though-like the saying "good help is hard to find," so you may have more leverage than you realize. There are good employers out there, and you may have an easier time than you think in finding one. Or perhaps you may be the sort of person who thrives best as a solo practitioner. In any case my advice would be to associate yourself with more congenial people. It's far from impossible.
116 weeks ago
116 weeks ago
:
I've heard of some incredibly bad experiences from people who work for solos. There are some older attorneys out there who basically just prey on ...MoreI've heard of some incredibly bad experiences from people who work for solos. There are some older attorneys out there who basically just prey on people, knowing the market is overcrowded and lawyers don't have a lot of mobility (because of the bar). Once you start working for them, they basically hold you hostage because you're afraid they'll give you a bad reputation.
I'm sorry that happened, and I think you were right to quit. For what it's worth, no one I know who worked for a solo was hurt by quitting (although they all moved ot different legal fields). Other lawyers usually sort of know who the jerks are.
Good luck!
112 weeks ago
I'm sorry that happened, and I think you were right to quit. For what it's worth, no one I know who worked for a solo was hurt by quitting (although they all moved ot different legal fields). Other lawyers usually sort of know who the jerks are.
Good luck!
112 weeks ago
Benita Talati
no one at my school told me that private loans were better. NJ Class was the only other option prior to Grad Plus. My school steered everyone to Grad Plus once that became available and most of us (including me) took those instead of the private loans.
IMO - schools should not be allowed to charge more than the current maximum federal loan limit. But then banks would lose out on profits from private loan interest.
Benita Talati
as far as law school tuition goes...ridiculous! I wonder where all of our money goes? And isn't it nice that the schools feel like they don't have to be accountable to us with how they spend our money?
It's disgusting that they see tuition as a blank check!
Benita Talati
Also, prior to 2006, I think people had to take out private loans since GRAD PLUS wasn't available. I would recommend people to see if their state has programs like NJ's Class Loans.
If student loans aren't reformed soon especially in this economy, it's going to be the next ugly bubble worse than the housing crisis.
Current students should learn from us grads, refuse to take out the loans, go to community colleges. Enrollment will go down and then tuition will go down.
Benita Talati
private loans majorly suck but for people with good credit like me, the interest rate is WAY LOWER than the darn Grad plus 8.5% rate! If your school is a FFELL school like mine, then your loans are through a private lender (including federal stafford loans)
:
Wow. I'm not sure you're getting good advice, if this is what someone at your school told you. I have a number of friends with excellent credit ...MoreWow. I'm not sure you're getting good advice, if this is what someone at your school told you. I have a number of friends with excellent credit whose interest rate on the private loans went up after graduation because the loans are exempted from consumer protections. Also, yes, FFELs are made through a private lender, but the government still regulates terms, pays the lender, and guarantees the loan, so the terms are better than private loans, and you can consolidate to lower payments.
118 weeks ago
118 weeks ago
Benita Talati:
no one at my school told me that private loan interest rates would be lower than Grad Plus. I found that out on my own upon seeing a breakdown of ...Moreno one at my school told me that private loan interest rates would be lower than Grad Plus. I found that out on my own upon seeing a breakdown of each loan and the interest rate on them. It's shocking how much lower my interest rate is on the private loan even though the rate is variable. This is just my experience and I don't recommend private loans since they can't be discharged or deferred.
118 weeks ago
118 weeks ago
Alli Gerkman
Does anyone know of any really good and creative student debt counselors?
:
I would be wary of anyone who makes promises regarding the private lenders. The lenders have NO incentive to change payments because the ...More I would be wary of anyone who makes promises regarding the private lenders. The lenders have NO incentive to change payments because the government protects against default for most of the loans, even the supposedly private loans. Also, absolutely none of the private loans can be discharged in bankruptcy.
The banks have every incentive to hope for default, because that means more fees for them. They have no reason to negotiate with anyone.
118 weeks ago
The banks have every incentive to hope for default, because that means more fees for them. They have no reason to negotiate with anyone.
118 weeks ago
Alli Gerkman:
I know all of the existing laws that are in place, which is why I think it's interesting when the lenders do negotiate (I've heard of other cases, ...MoreI know all of the existing laws that are in place, which is why I think it's interesting when the lenders do negotiate (I've heard of other cases, as well). I think it would be useful if there were more resources that talked about these out-of-the-ordinary circumstances. They're interesting for future policy. I figure if anyone is tracking this, it might be student debt counselors (whether for schools, non-profits, etc). So if anyone knows of anything, please let me know!
118 weeks ago
118 weeks ago
Benita Talati
Rebecca - the dilemna I face right now is that I have an interview on Monday for a non-legal position...and I want to practice law. I don't mind taking a temporary break while the market sorts itself out but I'm afraid this might hurt me when it does. Advice/suggestions welcome.
Rebecca Vandiver:
Benita,
I must have missed this when you sent it - my apologies! At this point you may have already accepted the job so let me know where things ...MoreBenita,
I must have missed this when you sent it - my apologies! At this point you may have already accepted the job so let me know where things stand so I can give appropriate advice.
Thanks
119 weeks ago
I must have missed this when you sent it - my apologies! At this point you may have already accepted the job so let me know where things ...MoreBenita,
I must have missed this when you sent it - my apologies! At this point you may have already accepted the job so let me know where things stand so I can give appropriate advice.
Thanks
119 weeks ago
Benita Talati:
Rebecca,
no worries. I ended up not even going to the interview...did my homework and realized the position was a scam. However, I did get a job ...MoreRebecca,
no worries. I ended up not even going to the interview...did my homework and realized the position was a scam. However, I did get a job as an associate for a firm and I start next week!
118 weeks ago
no worries. I ended up not even going to the interview...did my homework and realized the position was a scam. However, I did get a job ...MoreRebecca,
no worries. I ended up not even going to the interview...did my homework and realized the position was a scam. However, I did get a job as an associate for a firm and I start next week!
118 weeks ago
Benita Talati
Thanks Rebecca! Having interned at an employment discrim - plaintiffs firm these past few months, I know in my heart that I want to work in this arena and even found out that their professional assoc affiliate in my state has an event that I can go to next week.
Benita Talati
I'm concerned that the reason I got the interview is because I finally took my law school and licensure information off my resume. Even if I get the job, I'd still attend CLEs to stay on top of the new MCLE requirements for NJ (maybe mostly weekend and webinars so they don't suspect anything?).
:
This was my experience exactly. Nobody believes that someone with a law degree would want to (or need to) be employed as anything other than an ...MoreThis was my experience exactly. Nobody believes that someone with a law degree would want to (or need to) be employed as anything other than an attorney. And yes, I have been "let go" when my law degree was discovered, as if holding a license to practice law is akin to felony convictions.
120 weeks ago
120 weeks ago
Andrew Staltari:
Today I interviewed with an e-commerce company and the person asked me how e-commerce is related to law or contracts...the sale of goods. Either ...MoreToday I interviewed with an e-commerce company and the person asked me how e-commerce is related to law or contracts...the sale of goods. Either way my response wound up being way over the person's head as it just solicited blank stares.
120 weeks ago
120 weeks ago
Benita Talati
I'm a newly licensed attorney and WANT to practice law but after months of seeking and unemployment, any job including non-legal full-time seems welcome. But will this hurt me when I apply for attorney positions in a year or so when the market improves? I have an interview Monday for a non-law position. Any work and earning money is better than nothing but I am concerned about my chances to work in the legal field later.
Benita Talati
given the state of the legal field, has anyone temporarily worked non-legal jobs? If so, is it possible to get back in the legal field?
Alli Gerkman
Are you guys joining state/local bar associations? How are they helping you? And how are they failing you? When I made my transition out of law I didn't look to the bar for help. Now that I work for for a bar association CLE program, I have an inside look at some of the amazing resources/contacts bar associations can offer, but I still think many orgs could do a better job of making that accessible to new/young lawyers. I would love to hear what you guys think.
Benita Talati:
@Bob - Part 3 of my posts: As an example, I've been job-searching and networking has been one of my activities. I've been trying to get involved ...More@Bob - Part 3 of my posts: As an example, I've been job-searching and networking has been one of my activities. I've been trying to get involved with our local South Asian Bar Association. I expressed interest in getting involved in a project. Everyone told me to talk to their treasurer. He in turn offered to let me work on employment cases when he gets more of them. It helps that I knew that we have a mutual family friend and mentioned that to him.
120 weeks ago
120 weeks ago
Benita Talati:
@Alli - don't get me started on the employment statistics put out by schools and USWNR! I just got my survey and haven't filled it yet (I won't be ...More@Alli - don't get me started on the employment statistics put out by schools and USWNR! I just got my survey and haven't filled it yet (I won't be "employed" until after Valentine's Day). I wonder how many people fill it out and lie? Can anyone be caught in such a lie? I wonder how truthful people are in these surveys. I imagine unemployed people don't bother to respond. But do people who have jobs lie about salaries and stuff? Is there a better way to keep track of such data to be credible?
120 weeks ago
120 weeks ago
Nathan Johnson
I'm interested to hear what types of networking events were most effective for students/lawyers both during/after law school? My career services office says State Bar CLE events, but I beg to differ.
Alli Gerkman:
And I totally agree with Benita on YLD. It is a great way to get to know people and it leads to other leadership opportunities. We had a career ...MoreAnd I totally agree with Benita on YLD. It is a great way to get to know people and it leads to other leadership opportunities. We had a career program on Saturday and holiday parties were brought up as an upcoming opp, as well.
By the way, I do hear you on CLE programs being intimidating networking--I'd love to hear your thought on how they can be more inviting.
131 weeks ago
By the way, I do hear you on CLE programs being intimidating networking--I'd love to hear your thought on how they can be more inviting.
131 weeks ago
Andrew Staltari:
I am with Benita and Alli. CLE's can be intimidating if not un-nerving. More so if you went to a law school in another state and do not know ...MoreI am with Benita and Alli. CLE's can be intimidating if not un-nerving. More so if you went to a law school in another state and do not know anyone their. I went to this one CLE, and the vast majority of people only talked to their classmates. I was only able to network with other people from out-of-state. I suggest going to political functions or other such events. Remember, the profession is like a fraternity, so at other events other attorneys are more open to talking.
131 weeks ago
131 weeks ago
Benita Talati
Hi Rebecca,
Sorry I didn't respond right away but I was waiting to find out my Bar results. I passed it so I would absolutely love to practice law yet in my heart, I know employment law is what I truly want to do. Thus, finding a way to stay in the area of employment law using my legal background in this economy would be fine with me even if not directly practicing at a firm. Does that make sense?
Rebecca Vandiver
Hi, I'm Rebecca, a lawyer and career coach who helps lawyers transition careers. www.rebeccavandiver.com
Rebecca Vandiver:
Benita, I think that if you want to practice law, I would encourage you to focus on practicing law and not transitioning to HR just yet. ...MoreBenita, I think that if you want to practice law, I would encourage you to focus on practicing law and not transitioning to HR just yet. Employment law firms (both on the plaintiff and defendent side) have not been as affected by the recession (partly because people are suing over wrongful termination more). It may be easier to get a job at a firm that handles plaintiffs employment work than a large employment boutique which operates more like a big law firm. Does this help? Rebecca
133 weeks ago
133 weeks ago
Rebecca Vandiver:
Benita, to follow up (since I ran out of space), I would probably need to know more about your situation and what your experience is. That being ...MoreBenita, to follow up (since I ran out of space), I would probably need to know more about your situation and what your experience is. That being said, more companies are concerned with the legal implications of the decisions HR makes today, so I think you could pitch yourself well in an interview for an HR position. I guess the question is: would you rather be practicing any type of law or working with employment related issues? If it is the employment arena you love, I'd pursue that. Rebecca
133 weeks ago
133 weeks ago
Tobias Butler
I'm interested to know what everyone's 140 character goal is for BC as a lawyer/future lawyer.
Alan Schwartzseid:
As a "new" attorney, my job is extremely limited. My goal is to learn about other areas of law and offer advice whenever possible.
143 weeks ago
143 weeks ago
Benita Talati:
my goal is to learn more about the actual practice of law beyond just doing research. I want to do more already.
143 weeks ago
143 weeks ago
