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Rebecca Thorman What do you all think about co-habitation prior to marriage? Everyone I know seems to be moving in together or already living together, although I've always had the romantic notion that I would wait until engagement/marriage. Is that outdated now?

84 weeks ago from Work/Life Blur, I am Gen Y and Ask Penelope Trunk!1 more

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Cameron Plommer: I've been living with my girlfriend since my 2nd year in college, so about 4 years now. We are similar in a lot of ways, so we don't fight too ...MoreI've been living with my girlfriend since my 2nd year in college, so about 4 years now. We are similar in a lot of ways, so we don't fight too much about laundry, dishes, personal space and whatever else that can cause conflict. But we would have never known we could even live together until we actually did. If you wait to get married before you live together you might find out that your habits at home are completely different.
84 weeks ago

Jenn Cloud: I think it IS becoming more common for couples to move in together before marriage, especially with the economic slump, but my husband and I ...MoreI think it IS becoming more common for couples to move in together before marriage, especially with the economic slump, but my husband and I waited until marriage, still! I believe in staying true to yourself, and if the romance of waiting is important to you, then don't let anyone tell you otherwise!
84 weeks ago

Cassandra Jowett: I don't have any moral problem with people living together and I think it is a bit old fashioned to expect people to wait until they are married. ...MoreI don't have any moral problem with people living together and I think it is a bit old fashioned to expect people to wait until they are married. What if they never get married? What if they're not interested in getting married?

I lived with my last boyfriend for two and a half years, and it was great while it lasted, but the break-up was made extremely messy thanks to a shared lease and the fact that we had purchased all of our funiture and housewares together over those two-plus years. For that reason alone I would think twice about moving in with a boyfriend in the future.
84 weeks ago

Kyle Hendrickson: Outdated? Totally. Is it still something that should be the ideal? Yes, I believe so.

I don't want to step on anyone's toes with this, but my ...MoreOutdated? Totally. Is it still something that should be the ideal? Yes, I believe so.

I don't want to step on anyone's toes with this, but my personal belief is that a great deal of the breakdown of the nuclear family as a unit can be attributed to a lack of real character, courage and commitment on behalf of both partners. Marriage has become a joke because the vows that are made seem to hold very little weight and ultimately we've come to believe that our OWN happiness is more important.

Most of us don't even have HALF the problems that our grandparents and great-grandparents had to go through. It was pretty rare to hear about divorce back then.

What current society teaches us is that our happiness is ultimately the most important thing. Therefore, when things get hard or uncomfortable--we quit.

Marriage as an "american institution" started to become a joke when divorce became a more-common-than-not thing. The rise of cohabitation I believe is just going to intensify the problems that divorce lead to--broken families and broken people.

I can cut it a bit more slack when there are no children involved. But I truly believe that kids are meant to grow up with TWO parents and in order to become the most well-rounded person they can, both boys and girls truly NEED a strong male role model. That person SHOULD be their father. It's truly a horrendous shame and disgrace that so many men excuse themselves for knocking up a woman and then high-tail it out of there as though they're not responsible for the results.

Cohabitation without marriage is something that I don't support as a Christian, but also because I think it's cowardly. ESPECIALLY if the not-wife ends up pregnant.

If you're contemplating moving in together, just get married. Otherwise it's a commitment-phobic relationship that says, "I'm with you til I find something better". Women, (men too, but mostly women) you deserve better than that.

84 weeks ago

Elysa Rice: I think it's a personal preference but I'd say the reason that so many young people (myself included) are moving in together pre-marriage is ...MoreI think it's a personal preference but I'd say the reason that so many young people (myself included) are moving in together pre-marriage is because of the shift in how young people are moving out on their own. I have friend who waited until they were engaged and even married and I also have friends who move in very early in a relationship. I agree with Cameron that living together allows you to know how well you get along sharing laundry duty and such.
84 weeks ago

Sean Masters: @Rebecca my personal opinion on the matter is that a lot of marriages fail due to people not truly knowing one another. A lack of pre-marriage ...More@Rebecca my personal opinion on the matter is that a lot of marriages fail due to people not truly knowing one another. A lack of pre-marriage cohabitation directly leads to that knowledge gap.

Still, I think you should do what you feel is right. If both you and your boyfriend have a healthy relationship you will both be open, frank, and compromising (to each other, not to one side!) with your communication on this issue and it will work out for the best.
84 weeks ago

: For me it was a practical issue - my boyfriend and I met freshman year in college but didn't live together until we graduated. Since we left our ...MoreFor me it was a practical issue - my boyfriend and I met freshman year in college but didn't live together until we graduated. Since we left our college town, roommates were in shorter supply. We wanted to move to a distant city so it made sense for us to move in together. It's an adjustment, but it has definitely brought us closer together and more sure that we're heading for marriage.
84 weeks ago

Rebecca Thorman: I have eagerly read each of your comments so far. I really am fascinated to hear what others have done and what they believe. For me, moving in ...MoreI have eagerly read each of your comments so far. I really am fascinated to hear what others have done and what they believe. For me, moving in together - if you do it - should signal that you'll get married/engaged in the near future. While I know leaving together with someone will be different, I don't know that you have to move in to know what it will be like (isn't that what sleeping over and vacations are for?). I've read a lot of research on the topic and a few months ago read "A Little Bit Married" by Hannah Seligson that talked about if you live with one person and get married to them you're at no higher risk of getting divorced. However, if you live with multiple people before getting married, you're at a higher divorce risk.

My boyfriend and I communicate really well and while I know it will be hard (extremely so sometimes, I'm guessing) I think for me, the issue is more - are we ready? Because I know he is the one, but because of that, I feel much less rush. In many ways, I love taking it slow. And moving in together means that you'll be starting your life with that person. You'll never live alone again presumably. And if you think about it, that's a HUGE decision...
84 weeks ago

ChaChanna Simpson: I think it is becoming more common to live with your partner. And, if that is your thing, great. For me, I'm not living with someone unless I ...MoreI think it is becoming more common to live with your partner. And, if that is your thing, great. For me, I'm not living with someone unless I absolutely have to. I agree with you Rebecca in believing that you don't have to live with someone in order to know what it would be like to live with them. If their house is a mess when you met them, guess what it will still be a mess when you move in with them.
I wouldn't move in until marriage only because to me, if you already live with the person, what newness do you have to look forward to after marriage. Nothing would change, you'd just have an official piece of paper now.
84 weeks ago

Jean-Victor Côté: If you are as serious about starting to live with someone as you would be getting married, then I think there is not much of a difference. On the ...MoreIf you are as serious about starting to live with someone as you would be getting married, then I think there is not much of a difference. On the other hand, there is a world of difference if you are not. You may both be preempting a worthwhile union for each of you with someone else.
84 weeks ago

Donovan Moore: For any person that uses the term, co-habitation for living together, I would not recommend it. In fact, I would not even recommend marriage for ...MoreFor any person that uses the term, co-habitation for living together, I would not recommend it. In fact, I would not even recommend marriage for those that use the term co-habitation. For those thinking about living together, then yes, live long prosper, and get married too.
84 weeks ago

Trish Cardona: @Kyle Totally agree with all your points. As a woman, I will be told I'm too romantic or idealistic if I say you should get married before living ...More@Kyle Totally agree with all your points. As a woman, I will be told I'm too romantic or idealistic if I say you should get married before living together. But I say, if you don't have the courage to commit to a marriage, then co-habitation prior to marriage will not help you at all. While I don't judge people for their choices, if I had to do it all over again, I'd still go for marriage first. http://www.trishcardona.com/2010/06/15-years-on-my-musings-on-marriage/
84 weeks ago

Jamie Nacht Farrell: Statistically speaking; there are a higher percentage rate of divorced people from those who "co-habitate".

That said, I did it ( ; I don't ...MoreStatistically speaking; there are a higher percentage rate of divorced people from those who "co-habitate".

That said, I did it ( ; I don't think there is a right or wrong answer - I think its dependent on the person. However, to me; this is like not having sex before marriage...I want to try out the "goods" before I COMMIT!

My life did not change as much when we got married; but it did change when we moved in together. More so, I found out things about my (now) husband that I never would have before. Stupid things; but I felt like I got to know him at another level.

While we do not have children yet - the most eye opening experience we had was when we got a puppy! It's amazing what you can learn about someone when they are put in positions of responsibility...
84 weeks ago

Aida at Citi: Rebecca- I always had the same romantic notion as yourself...get married and then live together. After being with my boyfriend for three years we ...MoreRebecca- I always had the same romantic notion as yourself...get married and then live together. After being with my boyfriend for three years we decided that we wanted to buy a house together and then get married. I can honestly say that it allowed us to know each other even more and only confirmed for me that he is "the one". He proposed 3 months after we bought our home and we are getting married this October. I think you should always follow your gut and do what will work for you regardless of what anyone else tell's you. I changed my opinion about living together prior to marriage and it worked for me. Good luck!
84 weeks ago

Scott Asai: I think it matters more about what you value more than whether it's outdated. My wife and I dated for 8 years before we got married and we chose ...MoreI think it matters more about what you value more than whether it's outdated. My wife and I dated for 8 years before we got married and we chose to not live together before we were married. I think we enjoy living together now more, than if we moved in prior to getting married. For us, it was about what we believed, more than what anyone else had to say.
84 weeks ago

Ellie Behling: @Jamie - My response to that statistic about divorce (which my mom loves to use :) is just that people who move in together before marriage are ...More@Jamie - My response to that statistic about divorce (which my mom loves to use :) is just that people who move in together before marriage are also the same kind of people not morally afraid to get divorced. Think about it, people who don't live together before they are married would also more likely be the type who don't believe in divorce...I have no scientific stats about it, but just thought I'd share that response for those of you co-habitating who need a comeback to the divorce statistics:)

I live with my boyfriend and, while I see how it's less romantic in some ways, I'm glad because we were too young to get married but wanted to stay together and move to New York. I tend to find people in big cities are more comfortable with it. I'm just sick of everyone back home wondering why we aren't married. I'm not against marriage but I don't see what the rush is. Not to be pretentious, but I just think I'm too preoccupied with my career to be completely focused on planning a wedding. I think marriage is cool but I don't know why it it has to be a priority for someone in their 20s.

Sorry, tangent.
84 weeks ago

:
I think the biggest problem with marriage (beside the possibility than man was not meant to me monogamous), comes when one doesn't truly know the ...More
I think the biggest problem with marriage (beside the possibility than man was not meant to me monogamous), comes when one doesn't truly know the other person as well as one thought and consequently, over time, the views on crucial issues — like finances, how to raise children, or if they are even wanted, religion or lack of, family relationships, and the ethics of the other person — as well as divergent interests, end up not what one thought they were. This leads to dissatisfaction and contempt.

I do not think that living together prevents this from occurring.

The statistics on this are really kind of murky because intent is not routinely taken into account when doing stats on cohabitation prior to marriage, and intent to marry (which is the case with everyone who marries without living together), is quite different than intent to live together in order to decide whether one will intend to marry at some future point.

I think this is one of these things that each individual does based on their prior experiences and true intent.
84 weeks ago

Jamie Nacht Farrell: @Elie - I 100% agree with your assessment and while there is no scientific correlation / study done - it definitely makes sense. Your tangent ...More@Elie - I 100% agree with your assessment and while there is no scientific correlation / study done - it definitely makes sense. Your tangent made me smile ( ; I lived with my boyfriend for 3 yrs before we got married; and when we did get married, almost 4 yrs ago - we were still so busy with our careers that we even had to wait to take a honeymoon. I certainly don't regret getting married that early (I was 26), but it's been more recent (the past year or 2) where we've really gotten the time to ENJOY our marriage more; vacations to Europe, talking about having kids, etc. When we first got married - I was working 90 hr. weeks...hence, I feel ya. Screw the people back home!
84 weeks ago

Heather Dziczek: My hubby and I didn't live together before we got married — we both already owned homes and just stayed in them until we got married then bought ...MoreMy hubby and I didn't live together before we got married — we both already owned homes and just stayed in them until we got married then bought our own together.

I think the notion that you don't know if you *can* live with someone until you try it is wrong. If you have mutual respect for each other, then you can live together. Really. What cohabitational issues would arise that solid communication and mutual respect can't work out?

We had conversations ahead of time about dealbreakers (e.g. his house was disgusting, but I am not the maid and he's not "helping" me with housework — we both live here, we are both responsible for keeping it tidy/clean), but otherwise, you just deal with things as they come up ... kind of like the rest of life.
84 weeks ago

Jean-Victor Côté: Heather has a good point: "If you have mutual respect for each other, then you can live together."
84 weeks ago

Ellie Behling: @Jamie - ha, you rock! Thanks for appreciating my tangent. It's cool to hear your story -- reminds me not to stress too much about it, and gives ...More@Jamie - ha, you rock! Thanks for appreciating my tangent. It's cool to hear your story -- reminds me not to stress too much about it, and gives me hope about fun trips to Europe :)
84 weeks ago

Rebecca Thorman: @ Jamie @ Ellie - Actually, that statistic is wrong and like most, is based on an out-lying study in the 70s that had more to do with lifestyle ...More@ Jamie @ Ellie - Actually, that statistic is wrong and like most, is based on an out-lying study in the 70s that had more to do with lifestyle choices than moving in together prior to marriage. But many marriage orgs picked it up anyway :)

@ Heather - Love your points. I very much agree and as I've been talking to my boyfriend about possible issues, that's what he says as well. :) Communication and respect is key I think no matter what you decide.
84 weeks ago

Joy Kennelly: Very interesting discussion everyone. I'm coming into it late, but found this article I thought you might appreciate: MoreVery interesting discussion everyone. I'm coming into it late, but found this article I thought you might appreciate: http://bit.ly/afSZMe

I find so many people who live together first and then get married end up in divorce because their expectations change. I believe there was a study done in Sweden that supported this too.

I would never do it personally living by the old, old adage - Why buy the milk when you can get the cow for free? There's a funny one for men too, but can't remember it and it might offend some people.:)
83 weeks ago

JenG: I didn't read all the other replies, but I will say for me, cohabitation prior to marriage is invaluable for seeing a person as they truly are day ...MoreI didn't read all the other replies, but I will say for me, cohabitation prior to marriage is invaluable for seeing a person as they truly are day to day. The trick is to not feel committed to sticking with the relationship if you don't like what you see. Sometimes, once you move in together, it feels like the decision is already made instead of it being a trial run.
83 weeks ago

Kyle Hendrickson: @JenG,

Couldn't a person come to conclusions about most of the things you just shared by paying their potential a few visits and observing the ...More@JenG,

Couldn't a person come to conclusions about most of the things you just shared by paying their potential a few visits and observing the regular state of their living space?
83 weeks ago

Barbara Hall: I lived with my now husband for 5 years before getting married. (We dated for 2 years prior to moving in together.) I can honestly say I wouldn't ...MoreI lived with my now husband for 5 years before getting married. (We dated for 2 years prior to moving in together.) I can honestly say I wouldn't have learned certain things about him and his personality if we hadn't co-habitated before marriage. There are a lot of things you subconsciously don't let out of the bag until you are living comfortably in your own space. Coming from a divorced family (as in EVERYONE in my immediate and extended family), I think its been a valuable lesson for me to learn the quirks before putting on the ring. After 5 yrs co-habitating, I felt comfortable getting married, knowing that I was happy with this person for the good AND the bad AND the annoying. I don't know if I would have learned this after marriage. I think I would have been more apt to throw in the towel. But I think its going to be different for everyone.
83 weeks ago

JenG: No, I don't think so. The fact is, the facades we all put up don't come down with visitation. It takes prolonged periods of time to get someone ...MoreNo, I don't think so. The fact is, the facades we all put up don't come down with visitation. It takes prolonged periods of time to get someone to act as themselves as opposed to how they think you want them to act. We all do this too, not just someone "hiding" something. We tend to be on best behavior in front of others, but the amount of mental and emotional energy this takes makes it impossible to continue when you are seeing someone day in and day out for some period of time. Bear in mind I'm not talking about how cleanly they are either. I'm talking about the personality in response to stress, how they make decisions regarding living spaces, how often do they need alone time and how do they negotiate it? etc etc

If you didn't want to move together but wanted the same effect, try taking a month long vacation together. That would probably do the trick too.
83 weeks ago

Teri Guill: Although there is definitely something to be said for the romantic ideal of waiting to live together after marriage, I think often the opposition ...MoreAlthough there is definitely something to be said for the romantic ideal of waiting to live together after marriage, I think often the opposition toward living together first is very much tied up in beliefs about sex before marriage: if you're living together, you must be having sex, or at least are putting yourself in a position of greater "temptation".

This may be a bit on the personal/TMI side, but: I lived with my husband before marriage, but we didn't have sex until our wedding night (an unusual circumstance, I know). We moved in together about a month after our official engagement, a choice made for largely financial reasons. For its own sake, I have no issue with co-habitation (though from my previous statements, you may guess where I sit on the premarital sex aspect), and I think it can be a good choice for some people (though not all).

That said, I don't think it's necessary in order to test compatibility, and had financial and other practical concerns not been an issue, I would have had no problem waiting until we were officially married. When I moved in with my now-husband, there was very little that was new or surprising or caused much change for us. We were already very familiar and comfortable with one another, had had plenty of discussions about important things (including some of our habits, good and bad), and had spent lots of time around one another, including staying over at each others' places. So I kind of disagree with the notion that you can't really know what someone is like to live with until you live with them, or that co-habitation is a necessary thing to do first in order to establish whether or not you can stand to really commit to marriage or to be around each other 24/7.

As Jamie said, I think it is a choice largely dependent on the couple -- ultimately, you have to decide whether it is right or wrong for you and your SO, and I don't think there's anything wrong with the old-fashioned notion of waiting. But I do think that living together is a big decision, and shouldn't be taken as lightly as many people seem to (as someone else noted, it can get pretty messy if you break up and you have shared assets).
83 weeks ago

Danver Chandler: These are all interesting comments.

I was thinking about Cavemen and Women as I read some of these posts. I wondered who married the two people ...MoreThese are all interesting comments.

I was thinking about Cavemen and Women as I read some of these posts. I wondered who married the two people together, I wondered who signed the document to make their marriage in the cave 'legal'. (Yes, I'm kidding here). I also thought about slavery, and other histories where couples were denied 'marriage' on account of religion...and cultural standards in other locations for generations.

I say whatever floats your boat (as a majority of the comments have stated). You want to get married or live in the house before you sign some papers, that's you...you make the choices in this life. I just say, always be mindful of the soul your tying yourself to...you both will change, your circumstances will change, the question is do you want to GROW old with this person? Do you want to GROW with this person?

@Rebecca, this is quite an interesting post here.
82 weeks ago

Patrick Pho: I found Ellie's response very interesting- I honestly want to say that I think it's ok to live together before marriage but I can't help but look ...MoreI found Ellie's response very interesting- I honestly want to say that I think it's ok to live together before marriage but I can't help but look at all those stats that Jamie mentioned that says it's not a good idea. I guess I'm still on the fence.
82 weeks ago

Ellie Behling: Thanks Patrick :) I guess I agree with Danver that at the end of the day it's really about whatever floats your boat.
82 weeks ago

Rebecca Thorman: @ Patrick - As I mentioned,, that statistic is wrong and is based on an out-lying study in the 70s that had more to do with lifestyle choices than ...More@ Patrick - As I mentioned,, that statistic is wrong and is based on an out-lying study in the 70s that had more to do with lifestyle choices than moving in together prior to marriage. But many marriage orgs picked it up anyway :) We gotta stop spreading myths!
82 weeks ago

Josh Allan Dykstra: Wow, what a fascinating discussion! First, here's a pretty good, (somewhat) recent article that talks about some of the statistics and research ...MoreWow, what a fascinating discussion! First, here's a pretty good, (somewhat) recent article that talks about some of the statistics and research mentioned. http://usat.me?32288112 By my reading, it seems like that statistic isn't completely incorrect -- it's more like the verdict is just still out on the issue. I have to say, it does seem like a moving target.

One thought I'll add is that, in my mind, marriage is a state of mind more than anything else. At the end of the day, it's all about the commitment, right? If we look at marriage this way, we have people who are living together who are definitely "married," and no doubt you've seen "married" people who are just living together.

The terminology can get a little fuzzy, and it can also be distracting from the important things, which for me is creating more healthy families and communities.
82 weeks ago

Stefanie Kelly: I also find the importance people place on the technicality of marriage strange. I have been with my boyfriend since we were 18 (9 years ago) and ...MoreI also find the importance people place on the technicality of marriage strange. I have been with my boyfriend since we were 18 (9 years ago) and we have been living together for over 4 now. I never really felt like moving in together was a big decision - we'd been together pretty much every day since we met, been through a lot together and I already felt like he was my partner in every way. The only reason we didn't live together sooner was that we couldn't afford to move out of our parent's homes yet (until we finished school). I really don't understand why people hold so many expectations around the idea of marriage. It really seems like a bunch of pointless ritual to me. My partner and I respect, support and love each other, and take each other into consideration with every major decision we make. I know I can count on him and he has never let me down, and in return I have always been there for him. That is more than a lot of people can say about their "husbands". I think rather than fretting about a proper "process" for a relationship to follow, you should really just ask yourself if you can say that about the person you are with. Than do away with all of the pomp and circumstance as to how a relationship "should" progress, and just enjoy it.
82 weeks ago

: Though I do not have a problem with couples moving in together before, I do have a problem with couples doing so without being in a solid ...MoreThough I do not have a problem with couples moving in together before, I do have a problem with couples doing so without being in a solid relationship and an emergency cash reserve in case a hasty exit is needed.
82 weeks ago

: @Rebecca ~ I agree with peoplegogy don't get yourself into a situation where you are stuck or too dependent on the other person. I would never ...More@Rebecca ~ I agree with peoplegogy don't get yourself into a situation where you are stuck or too dependent on the other person. I would never live anywhere I couldn't afford by myself. In regards to moving in with someone.. I think there are upsides and downsides. If you do not plan on marrying that person why bother.. Seems like to much of a hassle if you don't plan on being with that person forever.
82 weeks ago

Ellie Behling: @Josh - Thanks for that interesting article! I thought these stats were interesting:

Teachman's analysis of federal data on 6,577 women whose ...More@Josh - Thanks for that interesting article! I thought these stats were interesting:

Teachman's analysis of federal data on 6,577 women whose first marriages occurred between 1970 and 1995 found that a woman who has lived only with her future spouse has no greater risk of divorce. But for women who lived with someone else in addition to the eventual husband, there is a greater risk of divorce, found the study, published in 2003.

• The odds of divorce among women who married their only cohabiting partner were 28% lower than among women who never cohabited before marriage, according to sociologist Daniel Lichter of Cornell University in Ithaca, N.Y.

You are right though...Who knows.
82 weeks ago

Mara L: Great question! I actually wrote about this as a personal argument in college. Personally, I wouldn’t do it because I see it as a pretend ...MoreGreat question! I actually wrote about this as a personal argument in college. Personally, I wouldn’t do it because I see it as a pretend marriage. It can be argued that it’s better to learn about your significant other this way and facing the problems head on instead of learning it the hard way after marriage. I read one article though some time ago that suggested cohabitation boyfriends do more housework than husbands-an interesting bit.

Bottom line: it could all be a matter of preference.
82 weeks ago

Chris Vasquez: I think that living together is a great idea. If you take a look at the increasing amount of divorces you have to ask yourself; why is this? ...MoreI think that living together is a great idea. If you take a look at the increasing amount of divorces you have to ask yourself; why is this? Sometimes the answer is that people didn't find out if they would get along in a living setting. Many personalities collide when put in a living situation. Living together before marrige can give someone a better idea if they are able to spend the rest of their life with someone. Which is anothe reason why I agree in premarital sexual relations, because it is just another way to determine if you are not only mentally but physically able to connect with someone as a "lifepartner"
82 weeks ago

Ashley Wysocki: I say yes, for most people. For me it comes down to a try it before you buy it approach. If you can't live together before marriage, you're not ...MoreI say yes, for most people. For me it comes down to a try it before you buy it approach. If you can't live together before marriage, you're not going to be able to live together after marriage which no matter how romantic you make it is just a legal categorization and sometimes a big event. However if you really love that idea of waiting and you really get to know each other and each other's habits and how you'd deal with them cohabiting, then go for it. YOU make the rules of how you want the relationship so find someone who feels the same/similar way and do what you want.
82 weeks ago

: While it is becoming less common, if not living together before getting engaged / married is what fits with your beliefs and personality, then ...MoreWhile it is becoming less common, if not living together before getting engaged / married is what fits with your beliefs and personality, then wait. What is more important is finding a person that has the same belief, and shares the same core values, general perceptions beliefs.
82 weeks ago

Hannah Kane: The sheer quantity of people who have weighed in on this discussion, as well as the extraordinarily differing opinions posted here, show that it ...MoreThe sheer quantity of people who have weighed in on this discussion, as well as the extraordinarily differing opinions posted here, show that it is something that each person will have to decide for themselves. I hope that this discussion has afforded you some clarity, for me it's been fascinating to read this thread. Good luck!
82 weeks ago

: If you are a romantic person, don't move in before getting married. If you are a meticulous, cautious person, I would say do it. Some people ...MoreIf you are a romantic person, don't move in before getting married. If you are a meticulous, cautious person, I would say do it. Some people like the mystery and some need to know exactly what they are getting themselves into. Either way works if you know yourself.
82 weeks ago

: @Josh - I really like your point that it is a state of mind more than anything else. My fiance and I have been together for 5 years and we FEEL ...More@Josh - I really like your point that it is a state of mind more than anything else. My fiance and I have been together for 5 years and we FEEL married-- that is, we feel commited to making our relationship work and to building a future together. That to me is more important than the actually marriage ceremony.
82 weeks ago

Ed Preston: Marriage used to be regarded as a serious, life-long commitment, something that was required before a man and woman could reside together without ...MoreMarriage used to be regarded as a serious, life-long commitment, something that was required before a man and woman could reside together without causing a scandal, because of the "quaint" idea that sex was for reproduction and that you shouldn't be doing it unless you were prepared to raise any children that resulted. Some time in the 60's that whole idea began to be mocked and tossed aside with every other societal norm. Almost overnight Hollywood made "living together" hip and trendy, and "the pill" and "choice" did away with (most of) the inconvenient side effects, and anyone who disapproved was ridiculed as backwards, puritanical or just plain repressed. Bottom line is that it's a lot more confusing than it used to be. Seemingly everybody wants it both ways. They want all the perks of marriage w/o having to make the public commitment first, so they "live together", later, if they decide it "feels" right, they get married and want a big celebration and lots of presents. And if, some time later, if it no longer "feels" right any more, they walk away from it, usually to something that "feels" a little more right to them.

Silly me, or anyone else still clinging to the idea that there might still be such things as right, wrong, ethical, unethical, moral or immoral any longer. Our culture has long since replaced such outdated notions with ethics by consensus and copying what's modeled for us on TV. So yes, live like the people on TV, get some "friends" to tell you you're doing the right thing, and you can't go wrong...
81 weeks ago

Kayla Zajec: Rebecca, this was a question that I had to battle with. Statistically speaking, there are much better things to do before marriage. However, I ...MoreRebecca, this was a question that I had to battle with. Statistically speaking, there are much better things to do before marriage. However, I recommend that the two individuals who debate this, should sit down and have a serious conversation about what they each want personally and in the future.
Good luck!
81 weeks ago

Ty Unglebower: It's better to live together, and get to know the other person in a domestic level, and decide it's not for you, than to just "cross your fingers" ...MoreIt's better to live together, and get to know the other person in a domestic level, and decide it's not for you, than to just "cross your fingers" and hope a marriage works out. It's a huge life change, and I don't see why it shouldn't be eased into.
81 weeks ago

Heather Dziczek: You don't get a "trial period" for most huge life changes. If you can't negotiate living together, how are you going to negotiate other large ...MoreYou don't get a "trial period" for most huge life changes. If you can't negotiate living together, how are you going to negotiate other large life-changing events (whether they are the planned baby-type or the unplanned illness-type, etc.)?
81 weeks ago

Ty Unglebower: Based on?

A life change is just that. A change. Some changes may be unexpected, but to say you don't get a trial run for most of them is silly. ...MoreBased on?

A life change is just that. A change. Some changes may be unexpected, but to say you don't get a trial run for most of them is silly. There are many changes over which we have a great deal of control, and part of that control is knowing what exactly we will be getting into before we begin something of such a magnitude.

You don't suddenly stumble onto a marriage through no fault or choice of your own, here. You enter into it voluntarily, and for me, to totally eliminate the idea of giving each other a trial run is to in some way abdicate responsibility for going into a colossal decision with one's eyes open.

Let's face it...just about any other voluntary but huge life changing decision would not illicit such an uproar at the mention of a "trial run". But when it comes to marriage, people become all taboo-ish.

I'm not trying to piss on anybody's religion here...and if it truly is a matter of one's God forbidding it, then there need be no discussion. One can simply say, "My God Forbids it." Fine. But don't add to that by declaring co-habitation to be nonsense from a secular standpoint. It simply isn't, and one has to wonder if the marriage failure rate in this country would be 51% if more people were willing to engage in it. (Maybe it would be, say, 45%, who knows?)

As for the negotiating angle, that is a non-sequitur. Certain things simply cannot be negotiated ahead of time. They must be experienced. I'd rather live with someone for 6 months and find out we just were not going to work as life partners, then get married, have it slowly sour, and end in a painful divorce proceeding. And I don't think that preference means I am unable to negotiate joint decisions. On the contrary I would negotiate for a cohabitation because of the seriousness with which I take commitment.

One cannot say on one hand "you don't get a trial run in life", and then on the other hand say that "you have to be able to negotiate the big stuff". I mean, which is it? We have the conscious ability to test things and make sure they fit, or we through all caution to the wind and commit without investigating something? Life cannot be both totally random AND wholly negotiable.

For my part, I hold no superstition. I'd live with someone a while.
81 weeks ago

Heather Dziczek: "One cannot say on one hand "you don't get a trial run in life", and then on the other hand say that "you have to be able to negotiate the big ...More"One cannot say on one hand "you don't get a trial run in life", and then on the other hand say that "you have to be able to negotiate the big stuff". I mean, which is it?"

What do you mean? If you're going to have a life partner, you need to be able to negotiate with them about everything in life that pops up. How does that require a "trial run in life"?

You get a trial run for most of life's changes? Where and how? I'd like to sign up. You don't know how you're going to be affected when people close to you die. You don't know how you're going to be if/when you add a kid (whether you choose to or oops to). You don't know what else is going to happen. I didn't plan to be diagnosed with cancer at 31. Think that didn't affect my marriage? Where was the practice run for that?

I'm not for or against living together unmarried. I'm a devout atheist and have no religious stake in this debate. But if you can't give and take and respect each other enough to learn to live together, how are you going to respect each other enough to travel through everything else? And really, there are ways to know if your partner is one to compromise without living with them. My husband's house before we married was one of the most disgusting places I had ever set foot in. And I'm not a maid. He does his fair share of keeping our house clean, out of respect for me and for us. It's part of being married.
81 weeks ago

Sara Gallagher: I have lived with my fiance for several years (getting married next July!) I would not say that we made that decision according to a "try before ...MoreI have lived with my fiance for several years (getting married next July!) I would not say that we made that decision according to a "try before you buy" strategy. Getting married is an important social move. I've noticed that when my friends get married, they begin hanging out with other married couples. Likewise, my single friends stick together. Living together has helped us fit in with both groups while we're in our 20s...we don't want to have kids in the near future, so we haven't felt the need to "solidify" ourselves as a family unit just yet.

81 weeks ago

Ty Unglebower: Obviously Heather has not understood what I have said at all. Maybe I didn't use the best language, but I think if you re-read my comment, it will ...MoreObviously Heather has not understood what I have said at all. Maybe I didn't use the best language, but I think if you re-read my comment, it will become abundantly clear that my post refers to event over which we have a choice...which obviously illness does not fall under.

But the fact that some major life changes can happen without the chance for a trial run doesn't mean that we shouldn't take trial runs for those over which we do have a choice...again marriage being one.

Most I imagine wouldn't buy a house without touring it it first, several times. Most wouldn't buy a car without driving it around a few times and comparison shopping. I don't think most people would find it wise to move to totally strange city without visiting it for a while. All of these are examples of major life changes/decisions over which we do have control, and for which we are more than capable of experimenting before committing. IF we choose to do so.

Again, people can do what they want, but to flat out say "living with one another before marriage means that you have no ability to negotiate" is, once again, way off track. If you, or anybody else doesn't choose to use co-habitation as part of their research before said negotiations, that's fine, but I will not accept that I am unable to negotiate with a partner, and be unable to be a good husband one day, simply because I opt to live with someone before I take the vows.

There has been enough in my life as well over which I have had zero control. (Say, my father dropping dead when I was only 7.) You're right, you can't prepare for that. All the more reason to ease into as many life changes as I can henceforth.
81 weeks ago

Heather Dziczek: Ty, my most recent comments were actually made because you didn't seem to understand what I was saying — and still don't — but I don't think ...MoreTy, my most recent comments were actually made because you didn't seem to understand what I was saying — and still don't — but I don't think debating it on BC is going to change that, so I will remove myself from what has otherwise been a very interesting thread.
81 weeks ago

Jerry Clifford, Word Guru: I believe in God's institution of marriage; however, in our modern society where the vows are broken so easily and the union is so complex because ...MoreI believe in God's institution of marriage; however, in our modern society where the vows are broken so easily and the union is so complex because of inbred self-centered tendencies, I think we need a trial co-hab period of mutually agreed length for evaluation. Today's church people would decry this concept as foul; and moreover, the idea can easily be corrupted by unethical partners, but if two people can sincerely make a commitment together, then, it could lead to a great marriage.
81 weeks ago

renal aladin: why should tunagan again, the marriage all
81 weeks ago

Jerry Clifford, Word Guru: Renal, what does that mean?
81 weeks ago

Aamer Iqbal: What are the statistics?
81 weeks ago

: @Heather ~ Why not debate? Why is it so bad to drive home ones point. I am sure Ty is not going to think ill of whatever your opinion is? And, ...More@Heather ~ Why not debate? Why is it so bad to drive home ones point. I am sure Ty is not going to think ill of whatever your opinion is? And, debating doesn't have to be a nasty fight. We are all adults right? I never get why people get flustered or angry and take themselves out.... Just wondering.
81 weeks ago

: @Jerry ~ Marriage is not God's institution it was created by man to build empires and create alliances...
81 weeks ago

Kyle Hendrickson: Holy cow, am I ever tired of getting notifications about this particular thread in my inbox.

Good discussion for sure, but I'm sick of reading ...MoreHoly cow, am I ever tired of getting notifications about this particular thread in my inbox.

Good discussion for sure, but I'm sick of reading about it, and I think the horse has been beaten enough. Especially when the email carries the same subject line every time: "So-and-so replied to your comment" and I have no idea what thread that's in relation to til I click.

Just a thought, Brazen team
81 weeks ago

Ty Unglebower: This is one of the few active, vibrant threads on Brazen that I keep hearing people say they are "sick" of.

There was a time when such an active ...MoreThis is one of the few active, vibrant threads on Brazen that I keep hearing people say they are "sick" of.

There was a time when such an active thread was the goal of people on Brazen. That it was in fact considered a great success and a wonderful stimulant to thought that a thread would have a long life. But now people are getting testy because this one continues to grow, and include more people.

Why? Once again is it because marriage is such a superstitious or edgy topic for so many? Are people less likely on Brazen to be flexible in this topic than others? Or if not flexible, at least intrigued by an ongoing thread?

I don't understand why people are suddenly so tired of, or afraid of this thread. I agree sometimes that the notifications can get overwhelming to one's inbox, but they are just as true with any other thread as they are with this one. Brazen has been looking into that. But why get all bent out of shape over this one?

Kyle there are a few threads that you have started which I could certainly get sick of hearing about in my inbox, as they have no pertinence to me. But because I am a member of some of your same networks, I get them. But I don't go to your threads and start telling you, and others who are interested in what you have written that, "I am so sick of this Sarcastard Thread. Can we just end it please?" That is because If I don't like a thread, I don't have to continue reading it, or commenting upon it. And I understand that some people may be loving it. (If they didn't, they wouldn't continue to post to it.)

Turn notifications off or something if you are really that bothered.
81 weeks ago

Mara L: @rebecca-have you written on this subject since you first posed the question?
81 weeks ago

Kyle Hendrickson: I'm far from bent out of shape on this one, Ty.

It's just a minor annoyance. I'm not actually upset so I apologize if my comment came across ...MoreI'm far from bent out of shape on this one, Ty.

It's just a minor annoyance. I'm not actually upset so I apologize if my comment came across as angry.

I would turn off notifications if it were possible to do it ONLY for this thread. Yes, discussion is good, but I don't want to do it on one topic endlessly, especially if I don't know what I'm getting into when I click.

I think it's great that it's made a connection with so many people. Kudos to Rebecca for bringing it up.

Also, if the e-mail subject lines bore something more specific, I wouldn't think twice about it and wouldn't be complaining. But being that I'm engaged in a variety of different discussions, it's irritating to find my inbox constantly redirected to this thread...and not knowing until I click the link to take me here.

81 weeks ago

Heather Dziczek: @Raquel- It's not a matter of being angry or flustered. I enjoy debate, but in order to have an effective debate, debaters need to listen. I'm ...More@Raquel- It's not a matter of being angry or flustered. I enjoy debate, but in order to have an effective debate, debaters need to listen. I'm not worried about Ty thinking ill of my opinion, but he's reacting without reading and blowing out of proportion things I'm saying. When I replied to try to explain that he'd misconstrued my point, he (ironically) replied saying that I wasn't getting his point. I don't think that re-explaining what I've already explained will somehow seduce Ty into considering other points of view or thinking critically about what is being said, so instead of arguing with a brick wall, I remove myself from the debate. That's all :)
81 weeks ago

Rebecca Thorman: Hi everyone. Wanted to give you a quick update. Thank you again for all your wonderful comments. I did ultimately decide to move in with my ...MoreHi everyone. Wanted to give you a quick update. Thank you again for all your wonderful comments. I did ultimately decide to move in with my boyfriend. I published a post on it this morning - http://bit.ly/9LiSsw - I read each and every one of your comments and took each to heart, and appreciated you taking the time to have such a smart dialogue!
78 weeks ago

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