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Posted On 11.18.08

Hannah Seligson is onto something.

"I left the egalitarianism of the classroom for the cubicle, and everything changed. The realization that the knowledge and skills acquired in school don’t always translate at the office is something that all college graduates, men and women, must face. But for women, I have found, the adjustment tends to be much harder," Seligson writes in a New York Times Read this author's blog.

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Jenn S.
11.18.08

I spent the first 7 years of my career in a nearly women-only environment. Out of 70 staff, three men worked there. It was also a social service agency, and a non-profit, so there were a lot of opportunities to take on a lot of responsibility and learn at a rapid pace. I am still grateful for the experience of cutting my career-teeth in that supportive environment. It was a unique place in more than just gender, because of the emotionally challenging work that we were doing, the staff were also more than co-workers - we were practically family, and it worked well to have that social net when you were getting frustrated/burnt out on the work. I may never find that kind of supportive environment in a workplace again, and that's okay too.

The flip-side of an all-female staff, is learning a different sort of office politics - negotiating personalities *and* taking the emotional temperature in every setting. Its not good or bad, just different. Now that I'm working in a co-ed office, I've learned to adapt my emotional intelligence skills to this setting, but I do miss the true honesty present in the staff at my first job.

GenerationXpert
11.18.08

I disagree. It's hard for everyone when they get out of college - and at this point in time young men have an uproad battle.

Also, i think the fact that Ivy league women are leaving the workforce for motherhood is actually a sign of great confidence. The are not leaving because they can't hack a job - they are leaving because they seeing mothering as being more important. I did not stay at home full time with my kids, but my friends who made this choice had to face a lot of women who accused them of not being able to cut it.

Susan Johnston
11.18.08

Actually, I think that sometimes other women can undermine young women's confidence in the workplace. There was an article in this month's Marie Claire that rang very true for me about more experienced women who give younger women a harder time than their male counterparts.

I had an experience in a previous job where a high-ranking woman would call me into her office when my (male) boss wasn't around and coerce me into doing things her way, even though they ran contrary to the way my boss wanted things done. It got to the point where I told my boss that he needed to be present for any meetings I had with her, because it wasn't appropriate for me to talk back to her, but she was saying some very inaccurate and inappropriate things about my job performance (despite not being my boss).

It's an unfortunate that not all women want to mentor or nurture other women's growth. I worry that an all-female work environment could feel like a scene out of Mean Girls if the wrong people were in leadership roles.

Scott
11.18.08

Interesting idea. However what I dislike about it from a business perspective is this: what happens when the all-female company has to interact with other businesses (who have males). Say in order to sell their product; the all-female company has to negotiate with a hard charging man. They will have zero experience dealing with this personality type and will be ill-equipped to succeed. Additionally, any company that's worth a damn will take the best employees regardless of gender, race or anything else.

Regarding the women from ivy's who stay home - my sense is that they do it because they can afford to because likely they married ivy men who make enough money to allow them to do it. I also agree with GenXpert that it's a sign of confidence at least as much as it is a sign of anything else.

Sara
11.18.08

It's hard any way you split it. I've worked in hospitals where all the bosses were female, including my own. It got ridiculous sometimes when two people who saw themselves as Alpha females butted heads. But there was more openness to talking things through.
Now I'm the only woman in an office full of guys. On a day to day basis, it stinks hearing about every sport known to man (yesterday ultimate fighting, today back to football) but I've found they're occasionally willing to talk about movies, their childhood upbringings and families. What's hard is having to say something 3 times, in different ways, to bridge the gender gap and always being mindful of how you carry yourself.

I'll take a good mix (even with its inequity and unwanted flirtations) any day!

Scott M
11.18.08

What you are trying to do is use gender as a shortcut for classifying personalities. While this might work in a majority of cases, the exceptions are EXACTLY why we have laws against gender discrimination in our society.

Because, in essence you are saying that men can't be as sensitive or in-touch with their emotions as women. Sure, in general, most men act like.. well...men. But some would thrive in an all-female office. It would not be fair to exclude them

Also, you would be including women who are less sensitive and less emotional than the majority of other women. Including them in such a workplace might cause the exact problems you were trying to avoid.

Instead, what we need is to match peoples skills and personalities to their job, regardless of gender.

There is no shortcut.

KateNonymous
11.18.08

I guess a single-sex workplace would have kept me from being sexually harassed by that one guy. But it wouldn't have made my boss less of an ogre.

(BTW, I do not believe that women are inherently bad bosses. I've worked for many others who were excellent; that first one really stands out.)

Beth Harris
11.18.08

This sounds nice, but as a minority female, I have found that even among all women, women just find ways to segregate themselves. So how well will this really work? The problem starts long before women join the workforce or go to college.

I think that the real problem is that we see one way for success, both men and women. We think that a woman must be less "womanly" and a man more "manly". He bucks up, a woman bucks up all the more.

There is space for all types, if we allow it, and teach people to capitalize on their strengths. Also, every industry isn't for everyone. And this has nothing to do with gender.

I also don't think that women leaving to have kids is a sign they can't cut it. It is a sign they want to do something else. I know that men feel an awful amount of pressure, just like women do, to fulfill their familial roles. Some relish in that pressure, which is one of the reasons I think that married men tend to make more money (and live longer) than single men. But some feel suffocated by it. The trick is, how can we make people feel better with both?

Of course people (men and women) will try to cut down your self-esteem. And unfortunately women have been attacked from birth. Just look at popular literature: young girl books focus on being a pretty girl; young boys books focus on being a manly boy. But there is another outcome: treating our little girls like human beings instead of little girls. And doing the same for our little boys. Stop buying fisher price model kitchens for girls and tool sets for boys. And let the kids be kids, independent of socialization. Maybe, just maybe, in that androgenous place before the hormones, we can give girls that extra boost to be women unafraid of what it means to be a woman socially, and men the confidence in their personhood to maybe be the one who stays home with the kids later in life.

And by the way, my experience has been that while men do tiptoe around me being a woman, other women make me pay for it. They attack my feminity with fervor. In a way that a man would never, and might not even think to do. And being a minority doesn't help on that front at all. College was rough. And if, when I was a little girl, my dad hadn't ignored the strares and bought me fire trucks, and let me think that Ken doll was way cooler than Barbie, I wouldn't have made it through with even a shred of confidence left.

The Office Newb
11.18.08

Earlier this year I wrote a post about women-only commuter trains that several cities around the world have instituted to keep men from groping them on their way to work.

http://theofficenewb.com/2008/02/28/no-boys-allowed-the-rise-of-women-on...

I, too, brought up the idea of women-only offices and one (male) commentor on my blog had this to say:

"These problems with women being groped on public transportation are due to the temporary and unpredictable nature of public transportation and the volume of people using the system. It would be very difficult to stop an individual groper before he faded into the throng of people.

Offices are different because the same people show up every day and any inappropriate behavior can be dealt with as long as there is resolve to do so.

Not only that, but would you really want there to be men only offices opening in response? Isn’t that what women have been trying to undo for the past century or so?"

Jaclyn
11.18.08

Thanks for the great comments.

@Susan Johnston, yes, some women can be awful to work for, but I think if the single-sex environment is geared towards professional development and mentorship, you might attract managers and bosses who are interested in creating that sort of workplace environment.

Back later for more feedback..

Stella
11.18.08

Self-confidence is one thing that most women lack. It is not only in their career but in their personal lives as well. A single-sex offices may be a good idea. But what about outside the office where they get to deal not only with women? Would they still be able to bring the confidence they have developed inside the office?

Anonymous
11.18.08

I was once on a mailing list with a number of high-ability women who had left the workplace to stay home with their children. It was more complex for these women than either "side" tends to admit.

For most of these women, career had been a struggle long before the motherhood decision came up. They found their jobs boring and frustrating - in some of the same ways that men in similar positions also find certain high-ranking jobs to be glorified clerkships. Staying home with children was, for many of these women, not seen as "better" for them or the children in absolute terms but as more meaningful than an unmeaningful career.

Perhaps a bizarre association here, but I think the trend towards doctors and lawyers writing genre bestsellers reflects the same things. People bright enough to be doctors and lawyers but finding the actual day-to-day work intellectually unstimulating!

Miriam
11.18.08

Same-sex offices exist in Israel. Ultra-orthodox women often bear the burden of most of a family's income, since the husband is learning in Yeshiva. At the same time, the ultra-Orthodox do not look favorably upon mixed work environments. As a result, quite a few hi-tech companies have set up women-only offices. It's win-win, since the labor is cheaper than mainstream Israelis who are university educated, they are highly motivated, the government often supports these initiatives with subsidies because they want to encourage the ultra-Orthodox to get into the work force; and the women benefit from a work environment that suits their needs, not only because it's same-sex, but because the conditions suit mothers, like shorter hours, etc.

Jaclyn
11.18.08

@ Miriam, interesting example. Although I was focusing on the benefits of a single-sex workplace for younger women, you bring up a good point about women-only environments possibly being more sensitive to the needs of working moms etc.

A few people have brought up how working in a single-sex office could affect women after they leave that office or when they have to interact with male clients etc. Often opponents of single-sex education say the benefits don't extend to the "real world" because the single-sex environment is contrived. But I find that friends who attended singles-sex schools do feel like they have s self-confidence they might not otherwise have, if it were not nurtured in a single-sex environment, so I tihnk there is a spill-over effect.

Erika with Qvisory
11.18.08

I'm not sure that's the answer. Many big problems require a variety of thinking styles to solve effectively, so eliminating all men or women from a workplace isn't likely to do anyone any favors. I think girls just need to be socialized to learn how to be confident and assertive.

Silvana Avinami
11.19.08

I've worked with male and female colleagues, I've also had male bosses (5 in total) and female bosses (7 in total). And I don't think it's possible to say that men are this... and women are this... I think it comes down each individual.

Some of my male colleagues were an absolute joy to have on my team as so were some women. Mind you, the most trouble I've ever had was with a catty female colleague, but still I don't feel that's a large enough sample size to draw any conclusions.

I've also had supportive female bosses as well as very supportive male bosses. I had a very cruel male boss when I was training to be a pastry chef. I later had a very cruel female boss in the corporate world.

I stick to it being a matter of personality, not what's under a person's pants or skirt.

Smith+Fritzy
11.19.08

@Silvana - there's going to be personality differences between men and women, but men and women are inherently different. If you subscribe to the theory that biology controls most of who we are, you can't really claim that personality will change who we are biologically. Women communicate different than men... it's a fact. Women do not have the same biochemistry as men.

While there obviously should be equality for all human rights, to claim that we're all equal is ignorant. Don't misinterpret that as being one person is better than the other, it just means we're all not the same. It's like that study they did about firefighters... women physically aren't built the same as men and do not have the same capacity for upper body strength to be able to haul people out of burning buildings. Do you hire females for the job even if they are just not capable of doing the job? Is it inequality or is it just "how it is"?

Apart from physiological differences, men and women communicate very differently. I spent a lot of time research gender communication differences in grad school and almost every study shows that women use more descriptive and indirect ways to send messages while men are direct to explain what they want. And since that time, I can say that I've had a harder time trying to understand what female employers want than male employers, despite personality differences. Men just don't read in between the lines the same way women do. Yes, we can, but it takes changing how we naturally do things.

Silvana Avinami
11.19.08

@Smith+Fritzy - thanks so much for taking time to respond to my comment. Your answer is very well thought. Although I believe that being able to pin down our differences to one factor - our biology - would make our lives at work and outside much easier and simpler, I do not believe that it's realistic or possible. (the chaos theory doesn't either) Taking from the firefighter example, the first thing that came to mind was: does that mean that a Guatemalan male (average height 5'2") is better equipped to do the job than a Norwegian woman (average height 5'5.9")? I have yet to test this, but something tells me that it depends. This tells me that there's much more at play than gender. I bring this up, because even if it seems far-fetched, the reality is that our work environments are much more diverse than just male and female. As a person, I'm much more than female. Who I am has to do with where I grew up (Colombia), who brought me up (2nd generation Jewish immigrants from Mediterranean and Eastern European roots and a Colombian nanny), where I've travelled (lots of places), what I eat (vegan, mostly raw), where I was educated (US, Colombia, Europe, Australia) and on and on... In my mind it's dangerous to focus on one factor - it only leads to a form of ism. Personally what has made me improve the quality of my relationships at work has been being in the moment. Leaving all filters and preconceived notions (and theories from my anthropology courses at Tufts) behind and relating to men and women, and Guatemalans and Norwegians and.. and.. as individuals.

Smith+Fritzy
11.20.08

@Silvana - Thank you as well for responding! I personally am on the side of biology controlling most of how and who we are in life. It's a hard thing for most people to believe because it takes us away from our idea of free will. No one wants to believe we don't control everything in our lives, right? I've posted about this before so I won't go into it for sake of sounding like a loony. But to argue your point about Guatemalans and Norwegians... yes, a Guatemalan male would still be a better firefighter than a Norwegian female because of how our bodies are just built differently, despite height. I'm not trying to generalize, but saying 80% of the time these things tend to be true. And it to rebut your point about your environment changing who and how you are... what if you eat a certain way because your body tells you to? I think chemicals tell our personalities what to do more than we think. It's the same that we know something was screwing around with us while we were teenagers... we know chemical changes made us act differently. Environmental things can contort what actions we make, but we still inherently want to do these things.

Sharon
11.21.08

Until double standards go away, even same sex offices won’t help. It is still acceptable for men to engage in behaviors such as interruptions and foul language where as it is not okay for a woman. The old adage that men are aggressive and women are bitchy is very much played out in my office. Women here cannot even raise their voice without being written up while men routinely use the F word without batting an eyelash.

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