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Lately, I feel like people left and right are getting married or engaged. In fact, one of my boys (and old roommate) recently got engaged. Congrats again bro.
But is marriage a natural thing?
Are we supposed to be with the same person for the rest of our lives?
The divorce rates are alarming. 50% is the latest number. 1 out of 2 couples are going to wind up marrying their ex-husband/wife. That’s insane and divorce is certainly not something to be taken lightly; especially with kids.
My parents got separated when I was 4 years old and divorced soon after that. I remember being the only kid in my elementary school with divorced parents. But then as I got older it seemed like more and more parents were getting divorced and I was no longer in the minority.
So what is the point of marriage if 1 out of 2 happy couples are choosing to ruin their perfectly good relationship?
Let’s explore:
Social - security: Meaning whenever you’re bored, you always have something to do. But what happens if you’re never bored?
Financial - security: If you marry someone who will be rich, or is rich, or both, you will certainly be rich. A lot of people will do crazy things for money, unfortunately. But what if you have your own money?
Caring - security: You have someone who will do anything in the world for you. Nice. But there are plenty of single people who have friends/family who will do anything in the world for them too and plenty of married people who don’t.
Sexual - security: You always have someone to be intimate with that you hopefully truly care about. That’s cool. Not much I can say about that, however, there are plenty of single people who don’t have to worry about that. And there are plenty of married people who still do.
Children: I’m starting to believe that there is no reason for ‘marriage’ unless you are going to have children together. What’s the difference between a non-married couple living together and a married couple living together?
Nothing! My sister and bro-in-law lived together before they got married. Nothing changed…except my sister’s last name.
So what does marrying someone actually do? Some might argue that it provides security. You always have someone and they just can’t pick up and leave.
Here’s my counter. The type of person that’s living with their significant other and is willing to move out of your apartment and start all over again…is definitely the same type of person who’d divorce you. And why the heck would you want to be with someone if they don’t want to be with you anyway?
I think marriage is just a contract. Like any contract there are pros and cons. There are exciting parts of the deal and not so exciting parts of the deal.
And ultimately, I think marriage is something people just do. It just happens. Like becoming a cog in a wheel.
Except in a nice way.
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Spouses have more rights than significant others. Why do you think the homosexual community has lobbied so hard to legalize gay marriage? And it goes beyond tax benefits.
Hospitals have “family only” policies for certain cases. If something were to happen to your significant other, you would have no right to their assets, nor to determine anything related to power of attorney.
And so many more reasons that I won’t get into.
Not to mention the website you linked regarding the divorce rate has conflicting information.
I think that in most cases, marriage is for the children — to protect them. To make it more likely that they have two people instead of one involved in bringing them to adulthood.
But there’s another thing, too. In many jobs, the demands are too high for someone to both run their business and their social life. So their spouse runs their social life. When there is a divoce, the spouse should get financial reward for having run the social life of someone so he/she could spend their energy earning money. A marriage protects the person focused on building a social life rather than a nest egg.
Penelope
I married the man I love, after 7 years of dating, 4 years of co-habitating. It wasn’t the natural progression of a relationship that aided our decision to marry…we honestly felt no compulsion to get us to the altar, much to our parents’ chagrin. We made a spontaneous decision to marry, but one I am still thrilled with 6 years later.
But as a bonus to spending my days with my best friend, marriage conveys financial and legal rights. I get to use the insurance plan of my husband’s company, which is crucial, given that I choose to work in the non-profit sector, where health benefits are both sparse and extraordinarily expensive. If I get sick, I know he’s there to care for me and help make important decisions. We don’t plan on having kids, but the partnership we gain in marriage is well worth any risk involved.
If you don’t want to be with that one person forever, and aren’t really, truly committed, then yes, marriage really is just a contract. It is more or less a business deal. Which is why most people get pre-nups now.
However, to the person that mentioned tax benefits…um do the math- and I am NO Mathematician but trust me, you get less tax benefit as a married couple come tax time. Its cheaper to co-habbitate. Unless, you are a married couple with children. Only THEN do you get “tax benefits”.
@ Eve:
“Married Filing Jointly — You can choose Married Filing Jointly as your filing status if you’re married and both you and your spouse agree to file a joint return. With a joint return:
* You report your combined income and deduct your combined allowable expenses.
* Your tax may be lower than your combined tax for the other filing statuses.
* You may qualify for tax benefits that would not apply if you filed separately.”
Courtesy of H&R Block’s website
I’m a newlywed so perhaps my voice won’t have much clout, but I’ve got to be honest, marriage is fantastic. But it has to be the right person, and I think a lot of people settle before they find the right one or are not committed to the hard work of marriage, so they bolt.
Sure you mentioned a couple fringe benefits, but I concur w/ Jenn S. above you says you get to spend days with your best friend.
There is something bold and crazy about vowing your life to someone. But it’s equally bold and crazy to face life alone, so…unless you’ve experienced this, it’s hard to understand why people get married.
Your post is about the reasons people get married yet your post goes into more detail about the benefits of marriage than the reasoning behind it.
I love the extra rights, tax breaks, financial security and baby making ability that marriage gives you. But if one of those is your primary reason for getting married, it is no wonder that divorce rates are high. That alone doesn’t sustain a relationship.
If you have a best friend, you are going to be committed to them and fulfill certain obligations. It is the same for a romantic relationship. For my wife and myself, we love each other and the ultimate commitment to each other is a lifetime one. Not because of benefits, duty or guilt but to us, it is the ultimate expression of commitment to each other. It was an action out of respect.
I would hope that most couples wouldn’t radically transform after marriage. I think things completely changing after getting married is a warning sign that the relationship wasn’t just about commitment, respect and love. I knew my wife was messy at home before we were married. I would be concerned if she suddenly changed to be a cleaning goddess. That isn’t sustainable. While she has gotten better, the change has been organic (and mostly out of necessity).
Anyway, that’s my view on it.
@ Eve, as someone who done our married taxes for three years with tax software, I have always tried both options (married but filing as single or married and filing jointly), and you never come ahead on filing as single. I would say only in rare circumstances would you see that filing separately be better.
As most of the comments do show, it is but a bureaucratic action. Even as a love contract it is paper oriented. Even as a contract its not really that binding.
It’s not natural, it’s expected.
Guys-
You are missing the point.
As Penelope basically said, marriage is basically an institution for children.
@Lance - My post is about the reasons people get married. Therefore, I’m naturally going to speak about the benefits. After all, it’s for the benefits of marriage that people get married, no?
And besides religion, every other comment is about tax breaks and insurance which fall into the category of financial security. If you have your own money you don’t need to worry about those things.
I’m not saying I’m for or against marriage. I’m just wondering what the point of getting married is besides some sort of security which I discussed above???
I think it just happens. It’s something people do. But why???
I agree with Lance in that tax breaks, financial security and baby making abilities aren’t the only ingredients to a marriage. If they were, then definitely expect a short lived marriage.
the alarming 50% divorce rate is because people get married for the wrong reasons. I totally agree that drastic changes shouldnt occur after marriage. if there was, then theres something wrong.
however fundamentals are very important in any relationship. moral and religious views i think are the cornerstone to any marriage.
Ive been blessed to have parents who just celebrated their 25th wedding anniversary. Grandparents knocked off 60 years of wedded bliss in 2005. Surely their doing something right.
Both couples said their marriages have had more pros than cons. Both stressed they never took their marriages for granted either.
When asked if they ever wanted to just walk away, my fathers response was, “hell yeah”. but what kept him going were 2 very important things.
1. To be an example to his kids that the man is the head of the family and has the ultimate task of keeping it together.
2. the vows he said to his wife with God as his witness.
Bottom line is “Marriages are made in Heaven, but their maintenance is done here on earth”
Its never going to be a walk in the park. If it is, then theres something wrong with the marriage.
So what if the rate is 50%. who cares? it shouldnt stop anyone from thinking marriage isnt worth it. we create our own destiny in the same way we create the type of family we want.
sacrifice, understanding, trust. Three simple ingredients that go way beyond the financial perks of marriage.
Any sort of contract these days have a million clauses with people looking for loopholes. If we look at marriage as just another contract, then we have a reason to look for an out.
Instead lets look at it from the point of view that we’re spending the rest of our lives with someone who isnt perfect, but who complements us.
Bryan Adams in one of his songs said, “when you can see your unborn children in her eyes, then you know you love a woman.” If that isnt enough reason to get married or stay married, i dont know what else is.
“You are missing the point.”
I think many would say the same to you, Adam. For many people, marriage is about the opportunity to lovingly serve one person for life, to place them above all others, to be faithful in mind and body to that person, and to share intimacy in all of its many forms in the process with that one person.
All of this, by the way, for better or for worse.
Marriage can be perhaps the most powerful of all platforms for practicing personal growth through daily, authentic selflessness. When you are that close to someone, it’s hard to pretend and hide very well for very long. That’s part of why so many marriages fail.
As you point out, you can piece together many of the benefits of marriage with extra-marital relationships, but the value of human relationships is often in the totality of shared experiences being unique.
You and your best friend may share an appreciation for women, beer, comedy, business, sports… but that you share ALL of those in common is what makes that relationship more meaningful than the sum of its parts.
If those things make sense and appeal to you, then that’s a good reason to get married.
I’m not trying to convince anyone for or against marriage either, but I hope that provides something like an intelligent response to your question.
In the words of Kanye West, “if you ain’t no punk, holla we want pre-nup!”
If I ever got married, I think it would be for two reasons:
1. Legal. See above regarding rights, taxes, etc.
2. Affirmation of commitment. I know most people don’t respect marriage, but I do, and I would expect my partner to as well. IF I ever got married, it wouldn’t be for the wedding… I imagine it would be a spur-of-the-moment, not legally-binding ceremony in India or Bali or something…
In the end, human optimism prevails. Otherwise, why would only 12% of newly married couples believe they might get divorced when faced with that 50% statistic? We all hope to fall to the positive side of the 50%.
@Chuck - What’s the difference between a non-married couple living together and a married couple living together?
Why do you need to be ‘married’ to do those things?
Who needs tax breaks? All you need is love. Making that vow in front of everyone is the ultimate expression of love, and that’s reason enough for me.
I assume you intend “living together” to encompass much more than just living together since you’re responding to what I described.
If you’re exclusive to each other, sharing finances, committed for life, and in all other ways resemble a marriage other than having been officiated over by a judge or cleric and given a piece of paper, I suppose you don’t need to be married to have the benefits I described above.
But in that case, you’re talking about having a marriage without ever telling anyone. Not sure why you’d do that.
Why NOT get married in that case unless it was forbidden by law?
Good post, by the way. You are speaking for a lot of people of all ages with your question.
Adam, disclosure: I’m married. I’ve been following this post all morning, and you’re right. I’m missing the point.
I respect your views, but all this post gives me is an insight into how a single (well, not-married) person relates to marriage. Marriage is one of those things where you won’t understand it until you’re at that point in your life. I would compare it to other life-altering events, like losing an immediate family member, or having a child. That’s why your benefits analysis makes no sense to me - it’s too logical. Sometimes we as humans do illogical things, and marriage is one of those, especially when all the reasons you listed don’t necessarily hold.
Interesting…I find fewer people interested in getting married. And that number seems to get bigger as time passes. Maybe because in our generation, and in the current culture, people feel more comfortable saying they don’t ever want to get married? I’m not sure, but in generations past, especially for women, people looked at you sideways if you said you didn’t want to get married and raise children.
But I agree with Lance’s comments - if you get married for tax benefits and financial security, rather than some of the other things he mentioned, then yes, it’s no wonder so many marriages end in divorce.
And yes, a lot of people do get married for the wrong reasons - and sometimes that reason is people feeling like they “had” to (”well, we’ve been dating for 2 years so….”. Doesn’t sound like a great way to kick things off to me…
@Chuck & Monica - But still, aside from all of the points I listed above….being that you and your s/o are both financially secure on your own, you have friends and family, etc. what’s the point?
I have plenty of friends that are not married yet live with their s/o. They are basically married. What would change if they were married?
Why can’t they go through this journey called life together not being married?
Or in different words, what does marriage do that living with someone else doesn’t do BESIDES the points I made above?
I gave that my best effort in the above posts, and I’m not sure you’ve given it a close reading. The key words are “for life.”
Statistics also dont include how many loveless marriages there are out there.
Im getting married as soon as i look out my window and see a pig flying. But best of luck to everyone who has already taken the plunge.
I’ve been married for almost a year now and I like to think of my marriage as “naked sleepover with my best friend”.
But on a serious note, marriage is an opportunity to pick your own family, to choose who you identify as your own. In our pre-married lives, our families are the entities we are born or adopted into. We don’t have much say on who we share genetics with.
I think why 50% of marriages fail is because so many of us have this idea that love should be like a Disney movie. In reality, love is an active choice - not a passive response.
Adam, honestly, I don’t think you’re going to get your answer. Because like I’ve said, and like I think some of the other married people have also tried to say, you’re not going to “get” marriage until you’re at that point in your life, if you choose to take that route. Good luck deciding if it’s the right choice for you.
@Chuck - So you’re saying all of this is for life? I got it. I get it. Makes sense.
But why can’t you live with someone and be with someone ‘for life’ without getting married?
And here’s my counter to the ‘for life’ argument:
The type of person that’s living with their significant other and is willing to move out of your apartment and start all over again…is definitely the same type of person who’d divorce you. And why the heck would you want to be with someone if they don’t want to be with you anyway?
Why would you want someone to stay with you just because they ‘have to’ because you’re married?
@Jayson - Great point. But again, I think living with someone is just as much a barrier to exit as being married is.
It takes a certain type of person to end a relationship in either case. Most people will just settle.
“But this is for life” Chuck argues.
But who wants to settle for life???
Adam, rent the movie “Little Miss Sunshine”. Pay VERY CLOSE attention to EVERYTHING Alan Arkin’s character (the grandfather) has to say. if you dont know what im referring to, we can discuss later after i finish my bench presses
It strikes me that not one person has mentioned the religious aspect.
I can’t personally claim to be particularly religious, but some people still believe that marriage is a promise you make to God as well as to each other, and thus has special significance, greater that of cohabitation.
@ Tracy - Joe did
I think - and this may sound a bit more pragmatic than I’d like it to - that there are social benefits that aren’t financial that come from getting married.
And I’m not just talking about sex or security.
I recognize that there are some cases in which living together is just fine for people. I don’t think psychologically, it could work for most people, just as marriage doesn’t work for many people.
My concept of marriage is as a team. I like to think of it in particular as a two-person basketball team. The first thing marriage does is define the game: basketball. It says who’s on the team, and it makes the priority the team win.
Two people living together in a relationship can have radically different priorities. One person can want to play baseball and the other basketball. One person may focus on scoring, and occasionally they’ll get clobbered for not passing.
In a relationship that is about two individuals trying to live together, they may fortuitously occasionally agree about the game and the goal. But more often, they’ll be close but a little bit off. Marriage is about deciding to work as a team, for the team win, and not for a personal priority.
This is why we see some relationships that have one person working and the other focusing on the social life - sometimes careers need teams. There’s a lot of jobs where you can more up faster if you’re married because there’s an implication of support - even when both people are working. A team can do better at their two jobs than two people could individually.
I mean, there’s love involved too, and all that good stuff about being with your best friend. But the thing that really separates it from living together is the team aspect - it just occurs more often in marriage.
I’m not married, but my b/f and I are planning to get there - despite coming out of an Army culture (he was enlisted for 3 years) that has one of the most screwy takes on marriage — affairs abound, spousal abuse and violence is much higher, and the stress of deployments set up couples to fail…
But despite all that, we’re getting married - because when he looks at me he thinks, “How could she ever be anything but mine?” and when I see him, I know, “How could he ever be anything but mine?”. His character, his attitude, everything about him is so on-the-mark that it’s illogical for me NOT to declare my respect for him, promise my love to him, and bless the world with more people like him.
Cohabitation is an agreement between two people with very little at stake. Marriage is a social agreement with several stakeholders and plenty at stake. The mutual risk to all parties under marriage encourages selfless behavior, forgiveness, and long-term thinking.
Thought experiment:
Lose your job, undergo crisis of spirit, battle alcoholism.
1. Where’s your live-in girlfriend? What are her friends and family advising her to do?
2. Where’s your wife? What are her friends and family advising her to do?
This is a bit specious, but I think it illustrates an aspect of marriage that you’re undervaluing.
Jason - Very interesting. I think in 1 she’d bail. In 2 she’d be ‘forced’ to work through it.
Again, to my point, and your point, I believe, why should any of us ever have to feel like we ‘have’ to stay in a relationship because the barriers to exit are much greater.
@Anne - Why do you need to be married to do all of those things? You can still love and cherish someone and think they are the only one for you and respect them with all of your heart and soul. No?
Isn’t that what you do right now?
@Jason - very interesting thought experiment.
@Adam Gilbert –
Very, very good point you make there, and yes, it is what we do now.
For me, marriage is a way to make all those feeling public - and validated by society. And yeah, in total non-Gen Y fashion, I do need that validation….plus promising commitment in a legally binding way is a gift I want to give - and receive. I can certainly see how for other couples, NOT asking for marriage is equally as generous. To each their own…:)
Adam,
It seems to me that you’ve dug in your heels and it doesn’t matter what anyone says in respond to this post–you find no intrinsic value in the institution of marriage. You seem to be only half-reading the comments and responding with a defiant “so what?”.
I’d almost venture to guess that you have a girlfriend who’s pushing for marriage and you’re using the blogosphere to reinforce your point. Too bad it isn’t happening for you.
OK, one more thought. I lived with a significant other for two years. I thought we would get married. He did not. We split (obviously). Living together did not mean the same thing to us.
Marriage makes it pretty clear. Whether or not it sticks, you are (supposed to be) saying, I’m in it for the long haul.
My point in providing the 12% statistics, is that 88% of those people really believe that what they have will last forever. That’s why people get married.
I was never comfortable in my live-in relationship. Nothing bound us together. Nothing told me this man was committed to me. Big news: he wasn’t.
It’s another level of commitment in a relationship. The highest level, however breakable it is.
Adam,
All your points are valid. there isn’t perhaps a clear cut answer. why? because as someone mentioned earlier, your reasoning is too logical.
Our parents generation and generations preceeding theirs considered marriage to be a sacred sacrament “where man and woman come together as one”. To them, this union of man and woman couldnt be brought about in any other way. If they werent married, then they weren’t “obligated” or “commited” to one another.
When all is said and done I think we humans still crave responsibility and commitment from our s/o. And if marriage puts us in that mental framework, then so be it. And if we’ve been trained into thinking that marriage is the way to accomplish it, then again, so be it.
@Jason
In 1. she’d stick around for a bit then leave telling the guy he was a loser and to stop feeling sorry for himself.
In 2. A commited wife would hold her husbands hand and help him in every possible way. [just read the stories of those who’ve had to take care of s/o who’ve battled depression]
She wouldnt be so much as ‘forced’ to work through it as lifting and taking care of whom she considers her ‘other-half’
In the end both parties would look at it as a positive experience where they learned something about each other they maybe never knew existed.
@Anna - Actually, you’re wrong. I hate cowards. And I wish you didn’t assume I was one.
I’m actually not in a ‘relationship’ and if I was in one and my girlfriend was pushing for marriage I certainly wouldn’t be cowardly enough to drive a point home via my blog.
Also, in my post I never said whether I’m for or against marriage. In fact, I’m a hopeless romantic and all I was hoping to do was make people think. Clearly, my hopes came true.
My main question - like the title says, is does getting married serve any purpose these days.
And all anyone has basically said in my opinion is unconditional love which is nice.
However, that’s not enough, as every one always has the best of intentions, i.e., Holly.
Per Holly, 88% of people believe their relationship will last forever. However, only 50% of relationships last.
To me it seems like the reason everyone gets married is just because everyone gets married. Pretty sad.
And if 50% of marriages fail, then does getting married serve any purpose these days besides being an institution for children and religious reasons?
6 or 8 months ago I wrote a post about how young leaders shouldn’t get married because it’ll destroy all their idealistic world-changing dreams. I don’t regret writing it, but boy did I get some grief. Chuck knows what I’m talking about.
For anyone who’s married, this is a sensitive subject. When you commit yourself to something with all of your heart of course you’re going to get pissed off when somebody tells you it’s a bunch of BS. But at the same time, if you believe in something that deeply, other people’s opinions shouldn’t matter anyway.
I’m totally not ready for marriage for a lot of reasons that Adam points out. I doubt I’ll feel that way forever, but for now, I’m questioning the point of it all too.
If that makes me an ass, so be it. But I say to each his own. Nice post Adam, thanks for making us all think.
I wrote a post a while back on exactly why marriage is a good idea. Read it if you want.
It is crazy to devote your life to someone. That’s a given. But do it anyways - that’s what makes life thrilling and worth living. At least I think so. I’ll speak for myself: I did not know the meaning of love until I had a ring on my finger. It’s not the ring, it’s the committment. I’m staring at a man who is swearing to love me forever in front of everyone we know, and I do the same for him. Incredible.
If you ask me, marriage it cannot possibly have anything to do with the above-referenced tax benefits and such; because if it does, its a sham, and then I see every reason for divorce. Then I’d think that person wasn’t deserving to be married.
I’m no expert as I only recently became engaged. I only read a few of the responses. I could go on all day to each of your points, but I will stay in the confines of careers; so Anna does not fret once more ;->.
If your career is important to you, then you have to grow. The 20s are largely spent soaking up real-world knowledge. This is a vital aspect to your development and could be hindered by a marriage. It’s important that she (in my case) understands my goals and objectives for my career. I haven’t always found that in other women, so I never conjured up dreams of being with them. This one largely shares the same value sets that I do in regards to career.
However, it doesn’t have to be career. For one person, it might be religion or for another it may be their favorite college football team.
Communicate well…focus on the person not the timing.
@Milena - With all do respect what makes your relationship so different from everyone else’s?
You know how many millions of men swear to love their girls forever? And how many millions of those same men wind up falling for someone else.
Of course, you’re going to defend marriage because that’s your life. I don’t blame you.
That’s like asking me to defend why being an entrepreneur and running MyBodyTutor is the greatest thing ever.
That’s why so many unhappy people stay married in unhappy relationships. Their whole life; their entire existence would be false otherwise.
As human beings we rationalize every single thing we do. We have to. The world would be impossible to navigate otherwise…
This debate has been going on ever since the idea of marriage came along. None of your arguements are new. And the answer to this question is a personal one, not one that will fit or encompass every point of view.
Why get married? I guess part of me is still a romantic sap. I really meant my promise “to love, honor and cherish, forsaking all others, for better or worse, richer or poorer, in sickness and health, till death do we part.” Most of it is personal,social and legal. When I got married, it was a visable, legal and personal sign that I was committing my life and myself to this person. That we were tying our fortunes and fates together with legal, social, emotional and spiritual bonds that had significant status to us.
Why do this? Because the physical, mental, emotional and spiritual connection that I share with my wife is the most significant one I have ever had. It formalized us as a team in a way no other kind of committment could. Through the years, we’ve fought with and for each other, boosted and supported each other, consoled and chewed out each other, as well as laughing, crying, raging, and consuming mass quantities of chocolate together. We’ve battled through triumph, tragedy, comedy and drama together.
And I can point to her proudly, and say “This is my wife, who is often my better half.” Quaint, isn’t it? But marriage has stood the test of time, and I can’t think of anything better to replace it.
To quote Sarek of Vulcan, when Spock asked why he married his human mother, Sarek simply replied, “It was the logical thing to do.”
Wow Adam, your response is really weird. I was just trying to share my feelings.
Calm down.
With the times changing, marriage is no longer always necessary to gain financial stability, have a life long friend, etc., etc., even though all those “perks” are pretty nice once you marry.
People usually move in together to see if they are a good fit. Marriage comes at a different point in life when both parties have found out that they are a good fit.
Say, a couple in love moved in together to see if they are meant to be. After living together for a while, they find out that they are. Your question then is “why go through the paper signing?”
Why not? (if you don’t mind me asking). While there is a 50/50 chance of divorcing, there is, I bet, a far greater chance of moving out. Why then move in? There are a lot more relationships falling apart then marriages. Why date then?
People can do what they want, but when I met my wife, I knew I had found the person who was right for me, so why not get married? That doesn’t sound super romantic, but really, I don’t understand these people who say marriage is just a piece of paper and then live together for 20 years. To me, that sounds like fear of something–why not just do it? Marriage is the way we declare to the world our commitment to each other. It creates something external to us, so our commitment is not just some internal pledge we both make. It creates a legal and social relationship that has universally understood meaning. We are not constantly defining what our relationship is. It doesn’t mean we have to accept stereotypes, but it is a lot easier to decide how we want to be different than to reinvent the whole wheel.
Re kids…of course, I think most people have kids in mind, but we didn’t. We didn’t decide to have kids until we had been married for 8 years.
Just to point out something about the 12% statistic vs. the 50% actual statistic: Why would someone get married if they thought it would end in divorce? Nobody who marries for love thinks they will get divorced at the end. The 12% statistic should be 0%, except there are people who marry for money or status or family expectations; in other words, not for love.
The reason people get divorced (the 50%) is because expectations are not met. But knowing for sure a marriage will work out would require the ability to predict the future. In reality, we make decisions every day with not enough information, and marriage is yet another one. At some point you have to stop crunching numbers and weighing pros and cons and just take the plunge.
And just to clear the air: the discussion here is not about single people vs. married people.
If this really offended me because I’m married, I could write a post about why being single is pointless and probably use the reverse of these same exact points from the post. But I don’t write it because I don’t care. And I’ve noticed that no other married people are writing it either.
The reason RP’s article got creamed is because the premise was essentially “You can’t be a leader/get ahead if you’re married.” The response was what you might expect when encountering a bold (and extremely flawed, IMO) argument.
So this article is nothing like that. But some of the negative responses come when people tried to engage in respectful conversation and got dismissed if giving any argument that wasn’t quantifiable. It’s easy for someone to say “unconditional love” as a bad reason to get married just because they don’t understand it. But I would expect more from someone who is trying to encourage thinking.
If you’re going to talk about something that involves strong emotions, don’t expect to be able to justify everything with numbers. It’s like asking someone to give concrete evidence for why they hate Led Zeppelin. At the end of the day, I just don’t like their music.
So marriage is a personal decision. But if you’re going to write about it, also be willing to listen with an open mind to the people who have actually been through it.
you don’t like led zeppelin’s music? how?
@Monica - If I didn’t want to read people’s opinions I wouldn’t have comments on my blog.
Just because someone states their opinion doesn’t mean I have to agree with what is said.
Again, many of the comments are restating reasons that fit into one of the categories I wrote about above.
Gathering from some of the other comments so far it seems as though true love is just something you can’t explain. It makes you do crazy things.
But I’m hoping someone can explain it really, really well.
How do you know you are truly in love with a person? How do you feel when you see that person? Does being truly in love make you realize you never were truly in love before (even though you may have thought you were)?
As a non-married person I have this idealistic view of marriage but I’m learning as I get older it’s not just kisses, rainbows and butterflies.
Or is it?
@ Adam
It really is asking too much to ask someone to explain true love to you. If it were so easy, it wouldn’t be the query of so many poets, writers, and artists. It’s a question of philosophy, and as with most philosophy, it cannot be quantified or universally agreed-upon.
Although you claim that you are not taking sides on the issue of marriage, merely asking the question, your responses and tone speak different.
And if you’re ultimately looking for someone to define true love, you’re looking in the wrong place.
You know, this sparked a really interesting convo between my BF and I last night. He’s a lawyer and took up the same argument - in this day and age, there is no reason for the institution of marriage.
As a lawyer, he pointed out gay marriages (which I’m amazed no one has mentioned here) and how it takes a lot of planning, but you can obtain everything but the tax priveleges. His argument, which finally made me understand your point, was that as long as you and the person you’ve chosen as your “life partner” are on the same page, then there’s no reason for a marriage contract, outside of society’s standards - the dowery (gift registry), the celebration (wedding), etc. Which is, from what I understand, what you arguing - not that the concept of commiting to one person is pointless.
He also pointed out that nearly all societies have some variety of marriage contract, which means that there must be some kind of overarching anthropological/ cultural purpose.
Finally, he said someday he would like to get married. Because it is what you do when you find the person to whom you say, Gosh, you’d make a great person to go through life with. And maybe that’s all there is to it - in the end, it’s what is done.
And I think it might be a bit disrespectful to our gay/lesbian friends who are unable to marry legally to invalidate their commitment to one another because our society won’t recognize their commitment.
I have friends who have been cohabitating with their SO for nearly a decade. For them the difference between what they do and marriage is merely a piece of paper. And I have more friends who have lived with several SO’s. Going from relationship to relationship, apartment to apartment. And I have even more friends who have made the commitment to marriage.
For me personally, I knew that I would never get married until I had completed my degree and was on a career path. I also knew that I didn’t want to live with someone without a commitment (note: this is not because of religious reasons either). I got engaged after I completed my degree, and because I knew that my husband was one who I wanted to be with, we were married within 2 months.
We’ve been married nearly 12 years and have built our careers together. We did not get married “to have kids” as neither of us wanted to have kids. We simply chose to make the ultimate commitment to each other.
When you cohabitate and hit a rough patch you can simply leave. When you’re married and hit a rough patch (and you will) you fall back on the commitment that you have made and stick it out and fix it (you don’t stay because it’s harder to leave, you stay because you made the commitment to be there).
I don’t care if you choose to get married or not, but I do care when it I’m told that “marriage is a piece of paper”. That is simply not true. Marriage is a commitment. The piece of paper is a legal document. There is a big difference.
How about we get rid of the legal piece of paper aspect of marraige altogether? Why should the government “bless” a partnership anyway. If people want the ceremony, so be it, do that within the confines of your chosen faith or non-faith.
Let’s get rid of the tax breaks for making a lifestyle choice altogether. Let’s end this idiotic debate over government’s involvement in defining marriage in all aspects.
I’m gay and in a relationship. It’s none of anyone’s business how we choose to define that relationship. I have access to my partner’s health plan. We have purchased a home together. We have purchased cars together. We have signed documents allowing one another to make critical decisions for the other. The only thing missing is the tax break and the certificate from the courthouse.
Let me be clear, if a man and a woman are able to have a government sanctioned relationship, I want that right also though I would never choose to exercise it. But, I think the better idea is that the government get out of the relationship and marriage business altogether.
@Holly - Really interesting - as far as our gay/lesbian friends. They have fought long and hard to get the same rights married people do (deservingly so). But again, that shouldn’t be the reason you marry someone.
You don’t need to be married to someone to be committed to them though. If I’m going to be in a relationship, I want to make sure I can be the best boyfriend I can possibly be. Because I want to make sure I’m in the best possible relationship I can possibly be in, otherwise what’s the point?
No need for marriage to make for an amazing and committed s/o.
@Kimberly - That’s truly awesome. But ultimately does it come down to the person? Personally, I’d never commit to be even in an exclusive relationship with someone if they weren’t the type of person to be committed to something.
Why should ‘marriage’ make it any different?
And if the communication is there, you’d be on the same page at all times anyway.
@ Adam - Did you just do this to stir every one up? 54…well now 55 responses. What’s the record on BC? ;->
Firing up my iPod to hear Sublime’s “What I Got?”…need some chill music.
@ Christien -
Not at all. I actually run my business MyBodyTutor.com. This is just a hobby.
I am just genuinely fascinated and curious how other people choose to live their life and most importantly why.
But I’m also not going to accept in not so many words ‘because it’s just something you do’ as a legitimate reason.
As far as I know, we all only have one life to live. We all have A LOT at stake in making decisions that will make us the happiest (because ultimately, I feel that’s what life is about) and engaging in meaningful and heated debates is a great way to learn from passionate people.
Btw, part of what I do is force people to look inside themselves and figure out WHY they want to be healthy and fit.
Just saying you do or because you want to impress other people or look good on vacation or win over a guy/girl is not a good enough reason in my book.
Ultimately, it has be to be because you want to feel great and amazing…consistently. And that’s what I help my clients do. I help them stay consistent with their diet and exercise like no other company in the world.
Which in turn makes them feel amazing (which makes me feel amazing), and after all, life is too short to not feel amazing as often as possible.
And maybe, just maybe, it just feels freakin’ amazing to be married for some people.
Ugh, you keep accusing people of not understanding your point and continually asking the question of why. That’s why this post has continued to get comments. The question of why has been answered many times over by people. You can choose to accept or not accept the answer but you can’t keep going on about people not understanding or answering your question. Here is mine broken out from my previous reply:
For my wife and myself, we love each other and the ultimate commitment to each other is a lifetime one. Not because of benefits, duty or guilt but to us, it is the ultimate expression of commitment to each other.
The “why” in that is that I wanted to express my love and commitment to her. That’s all. You think you can express that differently, fine I get that. But it is egotistical and presumptuous to think that your way is the only way. I don’t think you have to get married (I don’t think anybody is saying that), just that some people choose that. Some people like taking their s/o out to dinner to express their love but we like to go hiking and see new places. Why is going out to dinner such a great thing? I could write a whole post about that. It ends up that you’re just chastising or taking people to task people for simply wanting to express themselves differently depending on their circumstances. They don’t need a good enough reason to satisfy your demands.
The day you meet your soulmate, getting married and why folks do it will make sense. You won’t want to be away from that person ever, it’ll be effortless, it’ll feel like finding what’s been missing (without even knowing, perhaps you were missing it/them), you will be on top of the world. And not just for a few days. I met my husband 9 years ago yesterday and have been on top of the world since then.
Don’t let the cyncicm surrounding marriage keep you from experiencing the beauty, joy, and awesomeness of it.
Lance, you took the words out of my mouth…Kudos friend!
Seems like you know how we should all live. Some people have beliefs that lead them to think that marriage is something more than just a contract that makes transfering legal ownership and inheritance easier. Some people may believe that marriage is the appropriate way to have a long term monagamous relationship. It is a sign of commitment, an external display of your internal condition. Why not get married to someone you fully intend to spend the rest of your life with?
@Brent - Not once did I suggest how you should live your life.
Who the hell am I to tell people how to live their life. It’s your life.
I would think, it would go without saying, my blog post and my comments are my opinion. I’m certainly not suggesting everyone should not get married.
Again, I never even said I’m for or against marriage. Just want to hear what people have to say as obviously there are different sides of the spectrum and relationships are something we all deal with.
Adam, in your post, you suggest that marrying is unnecessary. You say “congrats bro”, but then you kind of diss him by asking the question whether the marriage is natural and whether we are meant to be with the same person for the rest of our lives. Then you list the reasons why people would marry and you dismiss each an every one of them. Then you conclude that marriage is just a contract, people do it just because. That comes off as if you are against marriage.
Maybe the problem is in how your post is written? Otherwise people would not post so much trying to demonstrate to you why marriage is good, why they married, why your list of reasons is incomple, why you sound so cynical.
Hi Adam,
“I think marriage is just a contract. Like any contract there are pros and cons. There are exciting parts of the deal and not so exciting parts of the deal.” Adding to that statement, it’s a contract that you should not never break! It’s a pity when people nowadays doesn’t value their commitment in marriage anymore.
It’s true that they have pros and cons, that’s what you have to think before marriage. Afterwards, you have to work it out together! Accepting the pros and the cons together, seek help if necessary.
Robert
Hi Adam,
Your points are well made. Certainly, there is plenty of evidence that marriages can be disappointing. Call me a hopeless romantic, but I believe everyone has a soul mate. People often marry before they have become the person that they were meant to be.
Jessica Bond
Medical Careerist
@ Jessica - Very interesting. And one could argue that’s exactly why some marriages fail.
People who don’t yet know exactly who they are or what makes them happy or what they want out of life…
At first I thought there was some interest in people’s opinions on marriage here. However I’ve come to realize this discussion is as hackneyed and old as the marriage custom itself.
Here’s why:
If person A says, “Marriage is unnatural and is a product of society, customs, and upbringing.”
Person B retorts, “Well, but where do those things come from? Generally societal customs and upbringing were decided upon a long time ago based on what works for their particular society. It just so happens, monogamy developed because it’s consonant with how humans developed from an evolutionary standpoint.”
Person A could still say, “But why are social constructs based on survival from long ago still foisted upon societies who truly don’t need them? There is no need for men to provide for women, we are more equal. There is no need to band together for survival, we have grocery stores and restaurants.”
Person B could say, “Because they are based on ages of wisdom and generally if something is disadvantageous, it’s worked out of the system, like polygamy or murder. While a few societies practice polygamy or perform sacrifices or honor killings, in general what’s not good for a society stays out. Marriage has stayed in. It needs no further explanation because the test of time explains enough. It’s not as if an alien came down and commanded us to marry. It came about organically, and for whatever multitude of reasons, it stuck.”
And then Person A says, “But what about divorce rates…doesn’t that prove an overall societal shift?”
Etcetera, etcetera, etcetra. This discussion will never end because of its nature, it’s not an arguement that can be won. It’s basically like that tragic joke, “Pete and Repeat were walking down the street…Pete fell in a hole, who was left?”
Repeat.
Actually, I don’t even think kids are a valid reason for marriage. There may be pressure from society to get married if you have children, but it seems to me to be a perceived need, not a real need.
I am 46, have two kids (19 and 14) without hang ups and dependencies or other ills of society and I only got married to their father when I was 40. This was because we moved to a country where he needed a visa to stay and the only way was to get married. The marriage lasted two years (after many years of cohabitation) and then we separated. We haven’t bothered getting a legal divorce yet, but we feel divorced, although friends.
I live in the Seychelles, where most people cohabitate, so it’s quite common. Switzerland is not a problem for kids if their parents are not legally married either, as I know most of Europe isn’t these days. Certainly, my kid didn’t suffer from any social stigma.
I would say, it largely depends on where you live, if it is a problem for the kids. But again, it would be the pressure from society and not the fact of non-marriage that would be a problem for kids.
I don’t even believe that kids need two parents. There are all kinds of different families in various societies and the kids grow up healthily. It’s more about love and communication than following the norms of the society one happens to be living in.
@ Louise - Thanks so much for sharing your insights. I think it’s really interesting how different countries view marriage and raising children.
“So what does marrying someone actually do? Some might argue that it provides security.”
As a divorced guy, I can tell you this: whether you are married or not, have committed or not, believe in “until death do us part,” doesn’t matter. You will be with the person you are with until the moment when one of you says, “see ya.” And when that happens, all the commitment, contract, vows, you name it, are out the window.
Face, folks, there are no guarantees, no security. You can’t be “safe” by getting married. Your kids aren’t “safe” because you got married. Adam was right: 50% end in divorce.
I’m very happy that my ex and I got divorced. We are great friends. She is a marvelous person. I love her very much. We raise our son jointly and happily. But we reached the end of our relationship, and she had the wisdom to say, “let’s end it.” She was so right.
Will I get married again? Who knows. But I certainly won’t buy into the security myth. I will simply love the next one with all my heart, even after we split up, if we split up. Because you never know. Just love ‘em. It’s all you can really do.
Excellent post, Adam. I bet the comments keep coming!
@ Tom - Thank you very much for your thoughtful comment. You said something that I was trying to say but couldn’t because I’ve never been married.
“As a divorced guy, I can tell you this: whether you are married or not, have committed or not, believe in “until death do us part,” doesn’t matter. You will be with the person you are with until the moment when one of you says, “see ya.”
I’m actually fond of marriages, even though I’m a bit of a cynic and don’t think I’ll ever get married (although I’m holding out hope). The big problem I have is with the commercialization of the entire process, and the ceremony/reception in particular. I mean, do we really need to spend $30k+ on these things? How about we find a way to spend $5000, get the same emotional high, and invest the rest of the cash?
I also have this theory that couples get married just so they have their special day and get the VIP treatment. That’s self-indulgent and the wrong reason to get married. Obviously, everyone around here is too smart for that type of thing
My reasons for getting married would be two-fold: 1) to make me part of another family, and 2) as the ultimate emotional and spiritual commitment. I also like that weddings serve as a way to bring friends and family together, but that’s not why I would get married. The legal and tax stuff I have no interest in. The legal aspect of it in particular I think is ridiculous, because you can fairly easily break the contract, or if you’re smart, do a prenup.
Adam,
This is something my fiance and I have been throwing around for some time now. We both know the statistics and one of us actually comes from a broken home (i.e., one of our parents has now been married 4 different times).
Milena said something earlier that I’d like to echo and add upon - marriage is a social (or religious for some) construct. With it comes some economic benefits, but more importantly, it is recognized in our society as maybe the most serious commitment two people can make to one another. When I discuss this with my glbt friends, that is the reason they state more often than not to fight for marriage rights. Just as the title of “fiance/fiancee” carry more weight in our culture than “boyfriend/girlfriend”, so too do “husband/wife.”
There is a more formal commitment being made when you promise to spend the rest of your life with someone (whether or not you actually wind up doing it) that commands a certain respect in our society - describe someone as your husband or wife and others will immediately respect your relationship more so than if you described the person instead as your “friend with benefits.”
We decided marriage was right for us because it shows us as united front to the dominant (and popular) culture. We’re trying to save the world here - it’s okay to play the game a little in order to command the respect that will get you in the right places to make the right kind impact with the right people.
Thanks for this discussion. It’s always nice when people decide to do something after a thoughtful conversation and because it’s right for them, not just because it’s what they’re “supposed to do.”
Monsaroe
Adam -
At the very top of your blog post is an image of a billboard with a URL of marriageworksusa.com. It just so happens that the answer to your question is on the “research” tab of that very website:
* Married people earn and save more money
* Kids of married parents do better in school
* Married people enjoy better health
* Married people make better parents
* Kids of married parents do better economically
* Kids of married parents are more likely to have long-lasting marriages
* Married people live longer
* Married people have lower rates of substance abuse
* Married people are happier
* Married people spend half as much time in hospitals
* Married people live more stable, secure lives.
* Married people live more active lifestyles.
* Married women experience lower rates of domestic violence.
* Married people have better mental health.
* Boys raised by married parents are less likely to commit crimes.
To me, the evidence is overwhelming that the institution of marriage, which I believe God created, still works and makes sense.
I stumbled across this thread through an MSNBC.com article about job recruiting by various firms and have found myself reading through this whole topic because I’m amazed to see the societal change toward marriage that has occurred so far during my lifetime (I’m 49).
My wife and I have been married 27 years this July (4 kids) and not only did we say our vows and get the “legal document” back then, a few years back we solidified our marriage even more by changing our marriage’s legal status to a “covenant marriage” – something now available in the State of Arizona where we reside. Here’s what that is:
*A Covenant Marriage*
We solemnly declare that marriage is a covenant between a man and a woman who agree to live together as husband and wife for as long as they both live. We have chosen each other carefully and have received premarital counseling on the nature, purposes and responsibilities of marriage. We understand that a covenant marriage is for life. If we experience marital difficulties, we commit ourselves to take all reasonable efforts to preserve our marriage, including marital counseling.
With full knowledge of what this commitment means, we do declare that our marriage will be bound by Arizona law on covenant marriages and we promise to love, honor and care for one another as husband and wife for the rest of our lives.
—————————————-
[to be continued in next post…]
[…continued from previous post]
In addition to making the above statement, we are now also bound by MORE RESTRICTIVE laws regarding divorce. People married under a “covenant marriage” cannot be granted a divorce by the state for all the same reasons as a “regular” marriage).
We VALUE marriage and what it means and its importance in raising children and having a strong family, so by making our marriage a Covenant Marriage, we’ve basically made it harder for us to get a divorce, if we were to ever consider that in the future. We do not desire to be a part of that 50% statistic.
Sure, this additional document still doesn’t ‘guarantee’ anything in terms of our marriage lasting forever, but it’s a further commitment that we’ve made to each other to PROMISE (tellingly, a word used only 4 times before in all these postings) that we will make it work, regardless of what hard times we encounter.
As has been said many times in this discussion, those of you that think marriage is for the birds really can’t be sure of that since you haven’t tried it — but there’s the problem. Marriage cannot, by its very nature, be an “experiment.” You have to go into it knowing there is no turning back. In today’s extremely selfish society where it is felt that “life is too short to not feel amazing as often as possible” it is no surprise that a long-term commitment is hard to come by.
Perhaps one does not have to marry to experience some or many of the benefits of developing as a human being in a committed relationship. But marriage helps. I have had my 32nd wedding anniversary – and I get happier and more fortunate every year of the relationship. Being married helped us, me for sure, get through the tough spots that happen when the inevitable clashes occur. Working through the disagreements and frustrations teaches a lot about life; people who know me will tell you I have grown a lot over the years and certainly the challenges, the joys and rewards of marriage that have helped to bring it about. I am thankful for it.
Being married meant we became a part of something we had not been part of before. We became part of the community of married persons. Many married people we knew had some values in common with us and some openness and or willingness to grow not alone, but together, with someone we thought was special beyond anyone else. Of course, some committed (non-married and even same-gendered couples have been meaningful to us as well – but in the ebb and flow of life, such couples are fewer in our experience). We, as a community of married persons, have support for one another in a variety of places and ways; that support helps us to grow and to continue to learn what love is all about. Thirty-two years ago when I married I thought I knew what love was about; today, I know a lot more about it. Love is giving, and love gives back – not because it is supposed to, not because it is mechanistic or a deal or a contract, but because when you truly give in to love, you grow and you receive.
Could my spouse and I have gotten individually and jointly where we are without being married? Can I hold my breath for two minutes? The marriage helps, and to the point made by several posters above – there is much that you gain from marriage that you cannot know about until it happens for you. It does mean giving up some things, no doubt about it. A successful marriage cannot happen between two persons determined to have life their way. But life, as we get older we find out, is not our way. Life happens. Prepare for it and prepare for the best of it. For me, that preparation and enjoyment comes from love and marriage – it is a wonder of the universe. Did I say, I’m thankful for it?
I think it’s funny that people talk about the “chance” of getting divorced. I mean, it’s not like, I’m just driving along and whoops! I’m divorced! Like having a car accident or something.
Just like there’s no chance of me waking up tomorrow with purple hair, but I could decide to dye my hair purple, take the requisite action and have purple hair.
I could decide to get divorced, go see a lawyer and get the process started. My husband and I discussed this at length BEFORE we married and agree: we won’t get a divorce. Though I can’t imagine it, the day may come when I don’t like even looking at him across the table but we won’t get a divorce.
I like the idea that we’re in this just like the vows say. You might see it as forcing someone to be with you… we see it as following through on our commitment - for better or worse.
The commitment is the purpose unto itself. And when you find the right person it makes sense.
My husband and I were a couple for ten years before we got married. I think the fact that we stuck together for so long is a good predictor of our future together. We got married mostly for practical reasons: so he could pick up my prescriptions and I could have health benefits. And the tax rebates have been fantastic. Honestly, if MA recognized common law marriages, I think we might have just stayed the way we were. Nothing changed after the wedding; I didn’t change my name, there was no sudden expectation that as the woman I would take care of all the housework, etc.
Like Kate, I lived with my spouse for a number of years before finally tying the knot. Even the “ceremony” was a non-traditional courthouse deal, done on leap-day of all times just to express the absurdity of having to be official in this day and age. Neither of us believe that marriage is the “right” thing for everyone despite our parents old-fashioned ideas. And a word about marriage being a safe haven for children…well as most of us (statistically speaking) grew up in broken homes I would beg to differ. In fact if you find yourself in a situation where you are getting married just for the kid, think twice. The child will be just as well adjusted with two parents who love each other in separate households than two who stay together even though they hate each other. (And children Do know that is the deal.)
When my husband and I got married nothing changed in our household either, no name changes or changed expectations. In fact really, the only reason we made it official was for the health insurance!
Very interesting post and the comments are very entertaining!
I’m in the same boat with Kristina and Kate. My husband and I got married on a snowy day in February a couple years ago after an 8 year courtship. Our reasons were legal and very practical ones:
1. one health insurance bill and one car insurance bill
2. to ensure we could visit each other if one was hospitalized
3. to make each other our legal next of kin (he has adult kids that aren’t necessarily fond of me)
_______________________
For us, marriage was the legal protection we needed. We already enjoyed a healthy, loving, committed relationship - we just needed the legal piece in place to ensure we could take care of each other, even after death.
I think marriage means different things to different people and it also means different things at different stages in your life.
There are plenty of arguments that can be made for NOT getting married; we made them nearly daily for eight years. We discussed the pros and cons. We consulted an attorney about the pros and cons. We talked with therapists. A friend pointed out that I’d already made the ultimate commitment - I had his signature tattoo’d on my back. So why not put the icing on the cake? And it was a great excuse for having a really nice party in the middle of winter, too.
If anyone actually gets down this far (MEN in particular), just check out:
http://www.nomarriage.com
and you’ll see why marriage is pointless (unless it’s to a non-American woman)
As a woman who has been married for almost 12 years, I can honestly say marriage IS worth it. It takes 2 people to make it work and so many of the above posts sound like a lot of selfish people who don’t really understand what marriage is. I would HIGHLY recommend the book “Love and Respect” by Emerson E. Eggrichs, PhD. check out his website:
http://www.loveandrespect.com/content/crazy_cycle.php
Marriage isn’t pointless-unless you’re only in it for YOU.
My Opinion:
Tuesday June 17, 2008
Scotland’s National Newspaper
96% of women are liars, honest
The Scotsman is Scotland’s National Newspaper,
December 9th, 2004
EDWARD BLACK,
NINETEEN out of 20 women admit lying to their partners or husbands, a survey on attitudes to truth and relationships has found.
Eighty-three per cent owned up to telling “big, life-changing lies”, with 13 per cent saying they did so frequently.
Half said that if they became pregnant by another man but wanted to stay with their partner, they would lie about the baby’ s real father.
Forty-two per cent would lie about contraception in order to get pregnant, no matter the wishes of their partner.
And an alarming 31 per cent said they would not tell a future partner if they had a sexual disease: this rises to 65 per cent among single women.
In the poll of 5,000 women for That’ s Life! magazine, 45 per cent said they told “little white lies” most days.
The favorite untruth was “of course you don’t look fat”, with “these shoes were only 10″ in second place.
Jo Checkley, the editor of That’ s Life! , said that while many women now lied to avoid hurting their partner’ s feelings, covering up the truth about a baby could have far more damaging consequences.
She said: “Modern women just can’t stop lying, but they do it to stop hurting other people’ s feelings. It could be argued that these little white lies simply make the world go round a little more smoothly.
But to tell a man a baby is his when it’ s not, or to deliberately get pregnant when your partner doesn’t want a baby, is playing Russian roulette with other people’ s lives.”
The National Scruples and Lies Survey 2004 found plenty of untruths were told over the Christmas period.
A total of 78 per cent said they would pass off a second-hand gift as a brand new present, while half have lied about a Christmas card being “lost in the post”.
Women will also lie to save people’ s feelings, with only 27 per cent saying they would tell a man if he was hopeless in bed (although a third would tell their friends all about it).
Just over half would flatter a man if he asked them about his looks and only 46 per cent would give the “brutal truth”.
However, 61 per cent of women would want their partners to be “brutally honest” if they asked them “do I look fat?” or “do you think my best friend’ s attractive?”
Elsewhere, 54 per cent admitted stealing sweets or chocolates;
23 per cent would “sneak a bottle or two” home if they were invited to a party by a well-off friend;
49 per cent would “kiss and tell” to the media for 25,000 if they had a one-night stand with a celebrity;
and 38 per cent say they would marry purely for money.
Nearly half said they had faked orgasms and 55 per cent admitted claiming they were tired, had a headache, or felt ill to “get out of lovemaking”.
Nineteen per cent of women with a long-term partner said they had cheated on him, while 30 per cent of all women have had an affair with a married man.
Sixty-eight per cent said they did not trust their partner.
As far as trustworthy personalities are concerned, the woman with “the most honest face” was Fern Britton, the This Morning host.
She was followed by the singer Kerry Katona (formerly McFadden), Sharon Osbourne of The X Factor and the Queen.
The “most honest male face” jointly went to Ant and Dec, the presenters of I’ m A Celebrity … Get Me Out Of Here!, with Prince William second.
The results come in the wake of the controversy surrounding David Blunkett, the Home Secretary, and his former lover, the publisher Kimberly Quinn.
They had a child, but she kept details of the affair secret from her husband Stephen, even taking her son to Corfu for a week’ s holiday to bond with him this year.
Mr. Quinn accepted his wife’ s story, but she had covered up the fact she was accompanied by Mr. Blunkett.
The survey questioned 5,000 women, average age 38, across Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland.
Top ten Porkies:
That’ s Life! magazine has carried out its National Scruples and Lies Survey 2004 to find out the top ten lies told by women.
They are:
1. “Of course you don’ t look fat!”
2. “These shoes were only 10.”
3. “The bus/train was late.”
4. “I’ve got a headache.”
5. “I’ve only had one drink.”
6. “That dress looks good on you.”
7. “The check’ s in the post.”
8. “You look ten years younger.”
9. “You’ re wonderful in bed.”
10. “I love you.”
My Opinion:
Tuesday June 17, 2008
I’ll speak frankly.
Due to the forceful Feminist Occupied America since the 1950’s, Men have no more use for women, except for sex.
We can take care of ourselves just fine. We are tired of the constant bitching and whining since the 1950’s, and today feminists are still crying foul.
We are tired of being taken advantage of and TAKEN for everything. A man can’t do that to a woman in divorce court, but a woman can. Gezz where is the equality bull.
Feminists,are:
Cunning Unpredictable Negative Trollops.
Women marry expecting to change the guy; while men marry hoping the woman stays the way she is.
Women are manipulative liars.
96% of women lie according to a survey of about 5,000 women.
Hello,
Here is some news or truth about the shame and charade of the Fancy Big Weddings which did not take place prior to the 1900’s.
UNIVERSITY OF MINNISODA
A HYPOTHESIS ON:
ORIGIN OF THE MODERN CHRISTIAN WEDDING CEREMONY
Here, stated quite briefly, is a hypothesis about how the format of the modern Christian wedding ceremony - at least the format I’ve seen in the United States - originated. Around 1984 I spent an entire day in the stacks of the libraries at the University of Illinois-Urbana/Champaign, trying to track down some evidence one way or the other. I came up with nothing, which I find quite puzzling. The U of I library system is the fourth- or fifth-largest in the world, and I would think that this subject would have been of interest to anthropologists, or religious historians, or students of American culture, etc. Maybe I just wasn’t looking in the right place. In any case, the hypothesis seems to be both interesting and plausible. I invite whoever reads this to steal my idea and run with it. Just let me know the result when you’re done; I’m dying of curiosity. Since this isn’t a professional publication, and I shouldn’t even be wasting time writing this down, I’m just going to leave it in whatever condensed, clumsy form it comes out in.
The origins are from when marriages were means of uniting two hostile or even warring clans. We could even think of this as trying to resolve a long-standing feud in which several people from each clan have been killed, sheep stolen, barns burned, women carried off, etc. So we seat the groom’s clan on one side of the aisle and the bride’s clan on the other; if they sat near each other, they’d be likely to fight with each other, maybe even kill each other. The priest comes out first, so that people will be deterred by fear of God from starting anything.
The groom enters first, and even despite the presence of the priest, he is also protected by his best man (and any additional groomsmen): he needs protection in case anybody trying to stop the uniting of the two clans tries to kill him. The bride enters last, protected by her father (or some powerful male from her clan); she needs this protection so that the groom (or, more generally, the other clan) can’t simply abduct her then & there: hold her hostage, hold her as his concubine, and rape her, whatever.
In one Scottish wedding I witnessed, the bride’s father carried a very real, very sharp dagger tucked into his socks. I was told this was traditional, and that it continues to this day in Scotland. I am imagining that she is also protected by her numerous bridesmaids, who may not be able to fight well, but they can create enough of a resistance to make abduction problematic. For the same reason of protection, the groom is not allowed to see the bride before the wedding; the danger exists until they are actually married. The bride arrives at the altar, and her father gives her away and sits down. At this point the bride and groom are directly under the eye of the priest.
He marries them off quickly, so that the clans are now formally hitched. They now have a big party at which the new relatives get to mix and bury the hatchet however they can.
I believe that these elements persist today because of (as the sociologist Robert Merton would put it) the latent functions served by this wedding format - the purposes listed above. There is still tension among families, and they still need to unite after the wedding. This format seems to be declining today (and has been for a long time, I believe) as the clan becomes less and less important, and even the extended family, and even the nuclear family. When people live lives so isolated from their family/extended family/clan, there is less and less reason to worry about them fighting, and so on.
Some of the things remaining unexplained: The rehearsal dinner. The bride’s family paying for the wedding & feast. The relative inequality of strength between the groomsmen and the bridesmaids. The superstition about the bride wearing something old, new, borrowed, and blue. Whether this was in fact the system back when clans were the major form of social power. How widely this pattern is shared among Christian cultures. (Of course it isn’t Christianity per se I’m talking about but rather clan organization.) Whether this has any parallels in other religions/cultures’ wedding rituals. Does this go back to Roman times? (I’m sure there are numerous questions I haven’t thought of.)
That’s all about weddings.
Don Gramke, a former student, sent me this little essay, which he found at http://www.weddings.co.uk | Info Section | Home. Thanks, Don. Here’s the essay, with the British spelling and … unusual … capitalization retained:]
When it comes to Weddings, everyone’s superstitious. Even if you’re the kind of person who walks under ladders on point of principle, or laughs their socks off when friends touch wood, you can bet that, when your wedding day dawns, wild horses couldn’t stop you clutching something old and donning something blue. And that’s just for starters. We guarantee that you wouldn’t dream of seeing your fiancé on the morning of the wedding. And will you expect to be carried across the threshold? Of course you will!
But where do these old traditions come from? Well, some can be traced back to Roman & Anglo Saxon times, some to Victorian rhymes and others to folklore that has been passed down through countless generations. All of them are to do with bestowing good luck and fertility on the happy couple.
There are so many superstitions and traditions associated with Weddings that it is impossible to follow them all. Many have changed over time, while others, thankfully, are very watered-down versions of old customs. The tradition of tying old shoes to the back of the Couple’s car, for example, stems from Tudor times when guests would throw shoes at the Bride & Groom, with great luck being bestowed on them if they or their carriage were hit! In Anglo Saxon times the Bride was symbolically struck with a shoe by her Groom to establish his authority. Brides would then throw shoes at their bridesmaids to see who would marry next.
Something Old, Something New, Something Borrowed, Something Blue and a Silver Sixpence in her Shoe
This rhyme originated in Victorian times. ‘Something Old’ signifies that the Couple’s friends will stay with them. In one version of the tradition the ‘Something Old’ was an old garter, which was given to the bride by a happily married woman so that the new bride would also enjoy a happy marriage. ‘Something New’ looks to the future for health, happiness and success. ‘Something Borrowed’ is an opportunity for the Bride’s family to give her something as a token of their love (it must be returned to ensure Good Luck), and ‘Something Blue’ is thought lucky because Blue represents fidelity and constancy. The custom began in ancient Israel where brides wore a blue ribbon in their hair to symbolize their fidelity. A sixpence was placed in the shoe to bring the couple wealth in their married life. Some brides still place a penny in their shoe during the marriage ceremony.
Flower Power
Flowers have always been a big feature at Weddings. The Groom is supposed to wear a flower that appears in the Bridal Bouquet in his buttonhole. This stems from the Medieval tradition of a Knight wearing his Lady’s colors, as a declaration
of his love. Each flower has its own meaning and can display a special message. Orange Blossom, for instance, signifies chastity, purity and loveliness, while red chrysanthemum means, ” I love you ”
The Time & The Place
Sunday used to be the most popular wedding day, as it was the one-day most people were free from work. Puritans in the Seventeenth Century put a stop to this, however, believing it was improper to be festive on the Sabbath.
Today, Saturdays are the busiest, despite the rhyme, “Monday for health, Tuesday for wealth, Wednesday best of all, Thursday for losses, Friday for crosses, Saturday for no luck at all.”
As for the time of year, the saying ‘Marry in the month of May, and you’ll live to rue the day’ dates back to Pagan times. May, the start of summer, was dedicated to outdoor orgies (i.e. the summer festival Beltane), hardly the best way to begin married life! Queen Victoria is said to have banned her children from marrying in May, and Nineteenth Century Vicars were rushed off their feet on April 30th because Brides refused to marry during May. The sun has always been associated with sexual stimulation and, therefore future fertility. In Scotland it was traditional for the Bride to ‘walk with the sun’, proceeding from east to west on the south side of the church and then circling the Church three times ’sun-wise’ for good luck.
Married when the year is new, he’ll be loving, kind & true.
When February birds do mate, you Wed nor dread your fate.
If you wed when March winds blow, joy and sorrow both you’ll know.
Marry in April when you can, Joy for Maiden & for Man.
Marry in the month of May, and you’ll surely rue the day.
Marry when June roses grow, over land and sea you’ll go.
Those who in July do wed must labor for their daily bread.
Whoever wed in August be many a change is sure to see.
Marry in September’s shrine, your living will be rich and fine.
If in October you do marry, love will come but riches tarry.
If you wed in bleak November, only joys will come, remember.
When December snows fall fast, marry and true love will last.
Food for Thought
The Wedding Cake was originally lots of little wheat cakes that were broken over the Bride’s head to bestow good luck and fertility. Today’s three tier Wedding Cake is based on the unusual shape of the spire of Saint Bride’s Church in London. Traditionally the newly-weds should make the first cut to signify sharing their life. Every guest than eats a crumb to ensure good luck. And sleeping with a piece under her pillow is said to make a single woman dream of her future husband. The giving of almond favors is connected with the motto: ‘A gift of five almonds represents health, wealth, long life, fertility and happiness’ The throwing of confetti, meanwhile is an ancient fertility rite. Handfuls of grain or nuts were traditionally thrown because they are ‘life-giving’ seeds. In some European countries, eggs are thrown instead.
Get me to the Church
Walking is thought to be the best way of getting to Church, as there’s more chance of spotting lucky omens. Seeing a rainbow, having the sun shine on the Bride and meeting a black cat or a chimney sweep are all lucky. Bad omens include seeing a pig, hare or lizard running across the road, or spotting an open grave. Make sure the road is clear of Monks or Nuns too; they foretell barrenness and a life dependant on charity.
Coming home from Church can be equally hazardous. Tradition dictates the new wife must enter her home by the main door and, to avoid bad luck, must never trip or fall - hence the custom that a bride should be carried over the threshold.
Dressing Up
Until the 1900s Brides hardly ever bought a special Wedding Dress, opting for their best outfit instead. Green was always avoided, as it was though to be unlucky. To say a girl ‘had a green gown’ also implied that she was of loose morals, because her dress would be grass-stained due to rolling around in the fields! Hence ‘Marry in Green, ashamed to be seen’. Queen Victoria, who broke the tradition of royals marrying in Silver, made White Dresses popular. Symbolising purity and virginity, white was also thought to ward off evil spirits. Other traditions are that the bride should never make her own dress, that the final stitch should not be completed until she is departing for the Chur